Some suggestion about Recon Units.(To give them unique abilities)

[pineappledan]

the difference between ignore and double is really not that much -- recall that *most* tiles are either 1 or 2 move cost: a double move in a 2-move plot is functionally identical to ignore in that same plot. the 3-move cost plots do impart some material differences to some units, but consider a 2-move unit that doubles into a 3 cost plot, spending 1.5 moves to get there, vs the ignore unit that only spends 1 move to do the same: each is only moving 2 of these plots regardless.

I interpret what you're saying here as being the ignore + double bonuses, not just ignore on its own, make the recon unique -- and I agree, but therein lies the jarring aspect of forested hill and desert highways some complain of here.

Yes, but you're talking about removing the ignore terrain from the base unit and locking it behind a promotion line. This really hurts the Survivalism line.

My old congress proposal removed it and gave them base movement of 3. Your recon pay terrain cost mod removes the double movement once they upgrade to scouts and then gives it back to them via the TB line. Both are worse than what we have now re: making scouts unique. Furthermore, the way your mod removes an ability and then forces you to pay XP to get them back is just horrible. Sorry, that's just completely unacceptable to me.

I interpret what you're saying here as being the ignore + double bonuses, not just ignore on its own, make the recon unique -- and I agree, but therein lies the jarring aspect of forested hill and desert highways some complain of here.

You interpret wrong. Ignore terrain makes them unique. Hang the double movement.

Ignore terrain cost as an innate trait for the whole line gives the scouts more options and more uniqueness. It's only in combination with the double movement that it results in "cheese", as you call it, and it's only this combination which annoys certain community members such that we have to keep having this same conversation every few months.

If one should go, it's the double movement, NOT the ignore cost ability.

 

[Tekamthi]

This really hurts the Survivalism line.

true, further adjustments would be required -- where i suggest an alternative to ignore, I am not suggesting that should be the only change, merely the foundation of any change to the line

gave them base movement of 3.

This is probably gonna be next version of the recon pay mod, just contemplating whether it needs to start at pathfinder or scout (leaning towards scout to offset the loss of pathfinder promo). Probably necessary to bump base mobility somehow to offset loss of ignore + double combination, but this has the advantage of no-new-code for *almost* the desired effect of the unimplementable congress proposal, previously mentioned featured hill and floodplain cases notwithstanding.

Keeping it also combines better with the Iroquois' free woodsman.

with ignore swapped for double bonuses only, 2-move iroquois pathfinder/scout can move 3 plots in forest, all others 2. The double bonuses don't seem to interact with iroquois UA. This is still a nice fit. I guess its been a while since I last played with ignore-terrain fully intact cuz I can't recall how it interacts with that UA.

 

[DoveCDog]

Scouting units shouldn't move faster through forest than through plains. I think that's a common sense change everyone can agree with.

 

[pineappledan]

Scouting units shouldn't move faster through forest than through plains. I think that's a common sense change everyone can agree with.

Its not, but people won’t stop insisting that it is, so here we are.

To summarize:
The scout line needs to retain its baseline movement options and it needs to keep the ZOC early and accessible. The double movement is expendable, and the current TBIII promotion is a bunch of gimmicks that should be on leaf promotions. If the stacking of ignore + double move needs to go then a new line of promotions needs to be concocted. OP is closer to the mark. But gets a few things wrong re: what it is that makes scouts useful in the first place, and ends up exacerbating the “super scout” problem early game.

 

[DoveCDog]

Its not, but people won’t stop insisting that it is, so here we are.

Players who spawn in plains shouldn't be punished by having a low move points scout. At the very least we ought to change TB1 to give double move to plains as well.

 

[pineappledan]

They aren't. They have clear sight lines, and reveal more territory faster.

 

[Tekamthi]

Scouting units shouldn't move faster through forest than through plains.

Funny, if you look back at the proposal thread, i was arguing against the removal of ignore (sort of) there, as well as in favor of why they should move faster in forest... Really I was just suggesting we need more community theorycrafting to iron out all the subtleties, like we are doing now, but all these concerns resurfacing re: thematic aspect of this recon movement regime in open vs forest, again and again, have persuaded me to address this concern somehow. In my view its really only the forest/jungle hills that feel jarring in the current regime, but I am persuaded that we can do recon better.

TB1 to give double move to plains as well.

I think this increases their overlap with mounted -- PD is certainly correct that we want recon to be a distinct line with unique value. Else why build them over the stronger mounted or infantry upon which they infringe? Anyway if the intent is to make recon equally fast in forest as in plains, the swap of ignore for double move bonuses accomplishes that almost perfectly

 

[DoveCDog]

They aren't. They have clear sight lines, and reveal more territory faster.

As do all units, right? Still no reason why a man should move faster through forest than through grassland. I'm not sure why you disagree but I always found it very artificial, thought it obvious to fix.

Funny, if you look back at the proposal thread, i was arguing against the removal of ignore (sort of) there, as well as in favor of why they should move faster in forest... Really I was just suggesting we need more community theorycrafting to iron out all the subtleties, like we are doing now, but all these concerns resurfacing re: thematic aspect of this recon movement regime in open vs forest, again and again, have persuaded me to address this concern somehow. In my view its really only the forest/jungle hills that feel jarring in the current regime, but I am persuaded that we can do recon better.


I think this increases their overlap with mounted -- PD is certainly correct that we want recon to be a distinct line with unique value. Else why build them over the stronger mounted or infantry upon which they infringe? Anyway if the intent is to make recon equally fast in forest as in plains, the swap of ignore for double move bonuses accomplishes that almost perfectly

It's not just forest - why should a unit move faster through desert than through grass? It is artificial and doesn't seem right. If you want to get somewhere with your scout what you end up doing is searching for desert tiles to the side instead of just going straight.
If they move with the same speed everywhere that would be fine, mounted units are for fighting, scouting units are for scouting, I don't think that would be an overlap. You would always want recon units for their forest/desert movement speed and for their sight upgrades.
Either ignore or double moves is fine, but ignore would only be 1 promotion instead of 2.

 

[Tekamthi]

If one should go, it's the double movement, NOT the ignore cost ability.

This is somewhat of a push in my view -- if we're talking one or the other (and not both combined), the difference is so slight I could go either way. After reflecting on this each time it comes up, its struck me that an "ignore" of any kind, is by definition a flattening effect, and my assumption is flat = less interesting/fun. Thus my focus on double promos as the solution: terrain differences are still a factor, the result is not a flat, samey-everywhere board, but recon still gets movement advantage in rough over most other units.

Secondarily, and while not a mainbranch VP concern, where I've added varied terrain to ocean in MB+ (storms), recon ignores these while embarked via the ignore promo, and this is undesirable -- call it a one-off, niche modding case, perhaps, but the double bonus approach is better compatibility for modmods, should any others ever attempt to add features to ocean.

A third concern I personally don't like is ignore effect for mountains -- recon should be able to cross mountains, but outside of the mountain UA civs, or mountain roads, a mountain should end the recon turn every time.

It's not just forest - why should a unit move faster through desert than through grass? It is artificial and doesn't seem right. If you want to get somewhere with your scout what you end up doing is searching for desert tiles to the side instead of just going straight.
If they move with the same speed everywhere that would be fine, mounted units are for fighting, scouting units are for scouting, I don't think that would be an overlap. You would always want recon units for their forest/desert movement speed and for their sight upgrades.
Either ignore or double moves is fine, but ignore would only be 1 promotion instead of 2.

I understand what you mean, and have implemented the double-moves-only alternative as modmod -- 2-move recon moves 2 plots there regardless of terrain/feature, with exception of flood plain/oasis. The ignore-only alternative could be its own modmod as well, really. I have a few other mod features & ideas I'd like to work on next, and my time for this hobby is limited, but I may give that option another look somewhere down the road, if we don't collectively solve it in the meantime.

 

[ma_kuh]

I've said this before, but recon transitioning into no-horse, low-hammer skirmishers feels like a good place for their combat role to settle post-scouting phase. So in terms of combat roles and distinctiveness, the new Screening promo is perfect in my eyes.

I have my opinion on fast travel through trees versus open, but I'm losing steam trying to fight about that, it doesn't seem like the most important part of the conversation. Ignore ZOC only existing down one line, but the balance of the entire unit being based on its existence, that feels like something that needs attention. As a quick solution, can we just add Ignore ZOC to Survivalism II?

 

[Tekamthi]

Things like ZoC can be added redundantly in the promo lines with no ill effects. Zone of control is either ignored or it isn't, there is no doubling effect, so it could be on TB2 & Survivalism 3, for example -- one gets you there quicker but either way you'll get this important ability early-on. Embark could be similar, mountain access, etc.

 

[Stalker0]

Does it matter if nothing catches up with recon units? They already don't fight well.

Why are you fighting with recon units? You should be:

1) pillaging every tile in sight
2) taking out TRs
3) cutting roads to drop connection gold and increase unhappiness.
4) forcing all workers in range to Flee for hear of getting captured.

The AI has intentionally been programmed not to use recon units to fullest extent, because if they did they would be wrecking games

 

[Enginseer]

The AI has intentionally been programmed not to use recon units to fullest extent, because if they did they would be wrecking games

Then why aren't they allowed to use their units to the fullest extent then people might change their mind on recon units

 

[CppMaster]

The AI has intentionally been programmed not to use recon units to fullest extent, because if they did they would be wrecking games

Really? That's a shame. I'd prefer the full potential of recon units. Would it be hard to add as an option?

 

[pineappledan]

Things like ZoC can be added redundantly in the promo lines with no ill effects. Zone of control is either ignored or it isn't, there is no doubling effect, so it could be on TB2 & Survivalism 3, for example -- one gets you there quicker but either way you'll get this important ability early-on. Embark could be similar, mountain access, etc.

At that point you may as well give it innately.

 

[Tekamthi]

At that point you may as well give it innately.

I wouldn't mind some of these as innate abilities, could help with that unique feel we want for this line. Really depends how the rest of the promotion trees are designed.

When was the last time we considered invisibility for this line, and what was the dealbreaker? There was some problem with either garrisoning or capturing cities with invis units iirc, but last time I tried setting these to invisible, I never ran into problems. There is only one functional invisibility category, the same one subs use, but we have no land units using it at all, and the first half of the game it sits unused entirely. Could be an option for further distinction of the unit line with no new code.

 

[Enginseer]

When was the last time we considered invisibility for this line, and what was the dealbreaker? There was some problem with either garrisoning or capturing cities with invis units iirc, but last time I tried setting these to invisible, I never ran into problems. There is only one functional invisibility category, the same one subs use, but we have no land units using it at all, and the first half of the game it sits unused entirely. Could be an option for further distinction of the unit line with no new code.

The AI literally does not exist for it. We already have AI problems with non-Recon units sitting on ruins thinking they're able to explore it at this patch.

 

[ma_kuh]

Invisibility feels like a late-game ability, if at all. But paratrooper ninjas doesn't feel like it would be fun to counter-play, without some corresponding Reveal mechanic. It seems thematic, but ultimately a lot of work to basically get back to where we already are: recon units near frontlines/revealers will die if they fight, and recon units with an escape path will fade into fog of war.

I agree that if the goal is to make ignore ZOC more innate, there are a few options that make sense. Just to summarize some related but different approaches:
1. Give ignore ZOC to the Survivalism line.
2. Give ignore ZOC to all recon units as a baseline.
3. Give ignore ZOC to an upgraded recon unit, maybe explorer or something later.

 

[Tekamthi]

Invisibility feels like a late-game ability, if at all. But paratrooper ninjas doesn't feel like it would be fun to counter-play, without some corresponding Reveal mechanic. It seems thematic, but ultimately a lot of work to basically get back to where we already are: recon units near frontlines/revealers will die if they fight, and recon units with an escape path will fade into fog of war.

I agree that if the goal is to make ignore ZOC more innate, there are a few options that make sense. Just to summarize some related but different approaches:
1. Give ignore ZOC to the Survivalism line.
2. Give ignore ZOC to all recon units as a baseline.
3. Give ignore ZOC to an upgraded recon unit, maybe explorer or something later.

true re: paratroopers in particular; while there may be a thematic argument for invisibility in rough terrain, its much less compelling when they're in open or embarked, and invis is an all-or-nothing ability. That's per unit however, not unit-lines: ie we could add it to early units and not later ones -- the paradrops in late game achieve the distinct unit-line quality for my tastes, plus we'd be overlapping into the era of submarine spotting at that point, which would feel odd when applied to these land units. If anything invis might fit on the pre-commando units, though we'd have to slow them down from status-quo.

Anyway its a pretty huge change; redistributing the existing abilities is probably all thats needed. ZoC and enemy roads are two that strike me as possible candidates for innate recon abilities

 

[myclan]

All your points inspired me a lot. If we want to make Recon Units very different from other units, give them unique abilities.

1. To reveal tiles unknows and collect Ancient Ruins, this is only true in early game.

2. To ambush weak units/tiles which are valuable but not well protected, like strategy resources or siege weapons. Different from Mounted Units for they can ignore terrain cost and defend themselves better.

3.To help other units heal faster. They can be the only Medic units.

Gives them +1 sight, ignore terrain cost, even +1 movement at the beginning, so better than other units in 1.
Make Medic line only available for them.
Survivalism the other line, make them not easily killed after 2.
ZOC, +more sight, embark/Mountain and others can be leaf promotion.