The Law of the Jungle

[GreyWithAnE]

It's stated quite clearly in post #11

I stand corrected. Clearly I am not the head rules lawyer around here anymore .

That makes for some very strategic decisions down the line. It'll be interesting to see how that's handled when the time comes.

 

[Jehoshua]

You can't achieve both with 1 action. You are attempting to overthrown him as ownership of a slave (which happens to be yourself). The slave attempting the overthrow is coincidental - anyone eligible to attack Prince could also try to overthrow his ownership of you. Prince is not at risk of becoming a slave through an overthrow or challenge - only at risk of losing ownership of J. as slave.

If you want to take P. as slave, you'd have to capture him. If successful, you would each be eachother's slaves which would be um... interesting but allowed. You'd each be able to give each other orders, disobey each other's orders, sacrifice each other (well, whoever is faster anyway).... could be fun, could be fun

I will stick with the overthrow to gain freedom (with Prinz von Persien being frustratingly unenslaved), I would rather not give him a higher chance of success (and a higher chance of getting more powerful with the +1 in each of the categories) and so I will stick with what is feasible.

@FN, the immortal Daimyo of Kyoto scoffs at your talk of RNG disfavour

 

[GreyWithAnE]

@Yahzuk: I have a few questions regarding game rules...

1) How do members of the military gain gold? Is there a salary similar to the way that soldiers gain food?
2) What is the in-game difference between a "dishonorable" and "honorable" attack/challenge?
3) What happens to a slave if his/her owner enlists in a new unit? Is the slave effectively a member of that unit?
4) Do Captains have to give new orders every session? Or can a Captain just say "Explore and attack barbarians" and leave that order in place until a new order is given?
5) Do orders from ex-Captains remain in effect after the Captain is killed/overthrown/retires?

I can get #1 and 2 for yahzuk, considering I asked him the exact same questions a few weeks ago:

1) Characters in a military unit gain gold whenever the unit itself does something that gains gold in-game (meeting city-states, popping goody huts, finding El Dorado, or gaining gold after a kill once you get that one Honor Social Policy). That's why you and Caragus gained 30 gold last session. Same goes for when they take actions that gain Culture, which will convert to Fame for unit members.

2) In-game, a dishonorable attack has a higher chance of success (because you get to use an extra attribute that the defender does not, such as using both Fame and XP for Overthrow), but has a lower potential reward (an Expected Value of half as much reward, as there is an extra Random Number multiplied in if the Attacker wins). Losses by the loser are the same for honorable and dishonorable; it is just that a winner will get, for instance and on average, half as much XP as a reward if he chooses Assassinate over Duel.

 

[Sparthage]

Thank you, Grey.

I will think about what my next action will be.

edit: And another few questions...

What happens to the production hammers and science beakers of a sacrificed citizen? What happens to a house's gold and food stores if the last member of the house is sacrificed? Does the sacrificer(?) gain them?

 

[Ceskari]

I am frustrated at the squabbling at the outskirts of the city. Slaving, revolting, whatever. At least the population is on the upswing! But, for the land to accommodate everyone, we need more space. I hope that continuing to produce the Monument will help in this.

 

[yahzuk]

@Yahzuk: I have a few questions regarding game rules...

1) How do members of the military gain gold? Is there a salary similar to the way that soldiers gain food?
2) What is the in-game difference between a "dishonorable" and "honorable" attack/challenge?
3) What happens to a slave if his/her owner enlists in a new unit? Is the slave effectively a member of that unit?
4) Do Captains have to give new orders every session? Or can a Captain just say "Explore and attack barbarians" and leave that order in place until a new order is given?
5) Do orders from ex-Captains remain in effect after the Captain is killed/overthrown/retires?

Grey already covered 1 and 2 pretty well.

3) No. An owner can order a slave to enlist in a unit.
4 & 5) Orders stay in place until new orders are given, regardless of what happens to the unit's captain.

 

[yahzuk]

What happens to the production hammers and science beakers of a sacrificed citizen? What happens to a house's gold and food stores if the last member of the house is sacrificed? Does the sacrificer(?) gain them?

Hammers and beakers of sacrificed characters are lost. I'm going to tweak the rules (but don't have time to fully document it right now) to allow you to give hammers and beakers to another character. Makes sense that they would be transferrable since you are able to buy them with gold. Giving them requires using the give action and they still expire at the end of the council session.

If the last character of a house is killed, the house's food and gold stores are lost.

Of course, you can order your slave to give you his house's gold, or food, or control of his land or city, or ownership of another slave....
Not sure if he'll obey your orders?
Try negotiating!
As in "Give me what I want or I will sacrifice you, slave!"

Or from the reverse point of view: "Please please don't sacrifice me master, I will give you X!"

Or, if you think the last of your house is about to die, give some stuff to someone you can trust to give it back to you when you rejoin the game <someone you can trust>

 

[GreyWithAnE]

Hammers and beakers of sacrificed characters are lost. I'm going to tweak the rules (but don't have time to fully document it right now) to allow you to give hammers and beakers to another character. Makes sense that they would be transferrable since you are able to buy them with gold. Giving them requires using the give action and they still expire at the end of the council session.

I know it might be futile, but I'd like to take a moment here to lobby for beakers & hammers to work like food & gold, in that they are stored communally for a house (they would still expire at the end of a session). If they need to be given with an action, then the only way hammers can be transferred between two characters, then used by the receiver, is the following:

Character A) [First action, could be whatever]
Character B) Toil (to gain hammers)
Character B) Give Hammers
Character A) Use Produce order to use new hammers

Which means it can't be done if either character is a peasant, it takes huge coordination to pull off, and it wastes a lot of actions, more than any other form of coordination that exists thus far. Plus, it's literally impossible to do if Character B is more famous than character A. You have a little more freedom with beakers than with hammers, but it's still so many actions (in exactly the right order) to pull off that it will be worth it only extremely rarely.

Letting beakers & hammers store communally like food allows for more strategic coordination between characters, more specialization of roles within a House, and more incentive for players to Join their houses together for mutual benefit, all of which should make things even more fun around here

Just my 2 yilfruit.

 

[yahzuk]

I know it might be futile, but I'd like to take a moment here to lobby for beakers & hammers to work like food & gold, in that they are stored communally for a house (they would still expire at the end of a session). If they need to be given with an action, then the only way hammers can be transferred between two characters, then used by the receiver, is the following:

Character A) [First action, could be whatever]
Character B) Toil (to gain hammers)
Character B) Give Hammers
Character A) Use Produce order to use new hammers

Which means it can't be done if either character is a peasant, it takes huge coordination to pull off, and it wastes a lot of actions, more than any other form of coordination that exists thus far. Plus, it's literally impossible to do if Character B is more famous than character A. You have a little more freedom with beakers than with hammers, but it's still so many actions (in exactly the right order) to pull off that it will be worth it only extremely rarely.

Letting beakers & hammers store communally like food allows for more strategic coordination between characters, more specialization of roles within a House, and more incentive for players to Join their houses together for mutual benefit, all of which should make things even more fun around here

Just my 2 yilfruit.

Interesting idea; 2 yilfruit isn't quite enough. See here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11038620&postcount=12

 

[dot80]

Toil for my lord.

 

[Princeof Persia]

Who is the god of this session?

 

[CivOasis]

Tenoch observes the surroundings - little of concern appears to be happening.
With little else to do, he returns to toiling for his landlord.

 

[GreyWithAnE]

Lots of dialogue this time, friends...

*****

“Aetlon, can I ask you something?”

“Of course, Ebzu. Anything.”

“When we pray to Hutzilopochtli before we fight...once we get to the Jaguars, I mean...how does he help us?”

“Hutzilopochtli guides our weapons and frightens out enemies. He brings us victory when we pray and sacrifice to him.”

“I know that’s what he does. But how does he do it?”

“He turns the tide of battle.”

“But what does he do that turns the tide? Does he spit at them down from heaven? Does he reach up from the earth to grab their legs?”

“Who knows, Ebzu? All we know is he protects us, but not our enemies.”

“So if we pray to the gods enough, will we win battles even if the enemy is stronger and faster?”

“Exactly. We will win battles that would be unwinnable.”

“What if our enemies are much stronger and faster?”

“There are no limits to the power of the gods. They will give us the world, if only we honor them.”

“Then why do we bother to train ourselves to fight, if the gods win our battles? And how come it is soldiers that go to war, and not priests?”

“You do ask a lot of questions, Ebzulotl.”

“...Aetlon, let’s spend more time training tomorrow. When we reach the Jaguars, when we meet Captain Tonauac and Lieutenant Sparthage, I want to win my fights, even without help from the gods.”

“As you wish, Ebzu. Tomorrow we will train. But we will pray as well.”

---

Meanwhile:

“Eazu, I am worried about Ebzulotl. I know we made the right decision, but it would tear me in two to lose him.”

“Matlan, you are right, and I feel the same. Worry for our son will become our daily vigil, but we must pray the gods watch over him.”

“And pray that our prayers will be enough, my love.”

“He is a smart boy, Matlan, and will grow strong. Aetlon will keep him safe as he grows, and he will make our family and our people proud. When he returns from the field, he will be much greater than when he left.”

“I hope so.”

“We must also remember our own responsibilities to our tribe. Tomorrow we begin the next harvest, which should be enhanced by our offering to Tlaloc from the festival.”

“I must admit that you’re better at this than I thought you would be, Eazu.”

“Life is long, Matlan. That impetuous girl I met at the meeting house so long ago may yet be proven right.”

“She was rash, and underestimated the bounty of Aztlan. Soon, all who wish will be Citizlans, and this struggle for land will cease.”

“You are right again. But a bounty of land will not still the greed in men’s hearts. Strange that many of them would not wish for my place if they knew how much worry it entailed.”

“Shh, Eazu. Count your successes, for once. Tonight, Noctusuma did not come. There is peace, and the tribe is happy.”

For one more hour, Eazu thought.

*****

So:

Eazulotl will offer 14 food to Tlaloc.
Ebzulotl will train XP to level 3.

See you all in Session 3!

OOC: Quotation marks are mad ugly. Is that hard to read?

 

[Sparthage]

Sparthage offers 2 fame to the God of Leadership.

 

[Jehoshua]

ooc: Thats tezcatlipoca to you Sparthage

 

[yahzuk]

the council session is now closed

 

[yahzuk]

Evening of the Second Council of Aztlan
The morning session:
The afternoon session:
This afternoon's events:

1. Soldier Tonauac (Caragus) Order 1st Company Jaguar Warriors "Heal on defense if wounded."
2. Peasant Tenoch (CivOasis) Toil for landowner of Tenochtitlan 1-NW
3. Peasant Chicona (Tambien) Toil for landowner of Tenochtitlan 1-W
4. Peasant Matlal (dot80) Toil for landowner of Tenochtitlan 1-NW
5. Peasant Mixtli (SmugKitteh) Toil for landowner of Tenochtitlan 1-NW
6. Soldier Ebzulotl (GreyWithAnE) Train XP to Level 3
7. Peasant Christos (Christos200) Toil for landowner of Tenochtitlan 1-W
8. Peasant Noctusuma (filli noctus) Toil for landowner of Tenochtitlan 1-W
9. Peasant Tlaloc (swimandciv) Toil for landowner of Tenochtitlan 1-W
10. Peasant Prinz von Perzien (Princeof Persia) Sacrifice Slave Citizen Ahuitzotl to Tlaloc Peasant Prinz von Perizen gains title Priest of Tlaloc (4). Peasant Noctusuma (filli noctus) is promoted to citizen.
    
    Spoiler sacrifice :

    
    The value of the sacrifice (N) is equal to sqrt((10*(2 if during Festival of Tlaloc)) - XP of Sacrificed Character), rounded down. Zero if imaginary number (negative inside square root).
    XP = 2
    N = 4
    
    A new citizen must be chosen to at random, weighted by Fame. It is Peasant Noctusuma (filli noctus)
    As Noctusuma cannot continue living on his current hex (the land is owned by another citizen), he is relocated to Ahuitzotl's old hex.
    All of the tenant's of Ahuitzotl who's actions already resolved have already paid their toils to Ahuitzotl. Being the last of his house, the house stores are lost upon his death.
    
11. Peasant Joatzli (JoanK) Toil
12. Citizen Ahuitzotl (Jehoshua) Overthrown Peasant Prinz von Perzien as owner of Citizen Ahuitzotl Action Voided because Ahuitzotl now dead.
13. Citizen Eazulotl (GreyWithAnE) Offer 14 Food to Tlaloc Tlaloc is pleased with this generous offering and blesses Citizen Eazulotl with 29 food.
    
    Spoiler offering :

    
    Blessing = Offering * Rand * 1.5 * 2 during festival
    Food Offered = 14
    Random = 0.705
    Food Blessing = 29
    
14. Soldier Sparthage (Sparthage) Offer 2 Fame to Tezcatlipoca
    
    Spoiler offering :

    
    Blessing = (Fame Offered)*(Random Number)*(1.5)*(2 if during Festival of Tezcatlipoca) Tezcatlipoca is indifferent to this offering and retunrns 2 fame to Sparthage.
    Fame Offered = 2
    Random = 0.965
    Food Blessing = 2
    
15. Tlatoani Cuautlequetzqui (Ceskari) Produce Monument

Spoiler :

The Second Council of Aztlan has come to an end. The council shall gather again in 10 turns time.

 

[yahzuk]

News of Aztlan 3600 BC (T10)

• NPC has a minor breakthrough in the study of Archery
• In Tenochtitlan, Tlatoani Cuautlequetzqui (Ceskari) makes progress in the production of Monument
• 1st Company Jaguar Warriors Orders: "Explore. Capture barbarians for sacrifice. Heal of defense if wounded." Report: We have found Madrid, Capital of Spain.
  
  Spoiler Madirid :

  
  
  

 

[yahzuk]

News of Aztlan 3560 BC (T11)

• NPC has a minor breakthrough in the study of Mining
• In Tenochtitlan, Tlatoani Cuautlequetzqui (Ceskari) makes progress in the production of Monument
• 1st Company Jaguar Warriors Orders: "Explore. Capture barbarians for sacrifice. Heal of defense if wounded." Report: We have spotted a Spanish warrior East of Madrid.

 

[yahzuk]

News of Aztlan 3520 BC (T12)

• NPC has a minor breakthrough in the study of Pottery
• In Tenochtitlan, Tlatoani Cuautlequetzqui (Ceskari) makes progress in the production of Monument
• 1st Company Jaguar Warriors Orders: "Explore. Capture barbarians for sacrifice. Heal of defense if wounded." Report: "We have spotted some ancient ruins."