The Mesoamerican Thread

[Caesar of Bread]

What Mesoamerican/Central American civs do you all want? What leaders? What do you all think about modern Mexico? Do you all have civ ideas for said civs? Am I delusional?

 

[reddishrecue]

Usually there's Aztec/Maya as the descendants of the Olmecs. Among them there's a bunch of small tribes that had smaller populations and appeared but aren't really recognized by the major tribes that had greater population. Besides, the region is a bit small on the map compared to other regions in the world.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm not as invested in seeing more civs from Mesoamerica/Central America other than the Aztecs and Maya right now. As far as postcolonial nations go I'd rather see Gran Colombia again, or something else from South America like Argentina, or Haiti in the Caribbean than Mexico too.
I wouldn't mind filling out the region with city-states/minor nations. I feel like other regions need more first.

 

[Patine]

I'm not as invested in seeing more civs from Mesoamerica/Central America other than the Aztecs and Maya right now. As far as postcolonial nations go I'd rather see Gran Colombia again, or something else from South America like Argentina, or Haiti in the Caribbean than Mexico too.
I wouldn't mind filling out the region with city-states/minor nations. I feel like other regions need more first.

Oh, please not Gran Colombia, again. I'd much rather the Muisca in that area. And Argentina only with a leader whose last name is NOT Peron...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Oh, please not Gran Colombia, again. I'd much rather the Muisca in that area. And Argentina only with a leader whose last name is NOT Peron...

I wouldn't mind the Muisca. In fact, I'm hoping for the Muisca and Argentina in Civ 7.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Usually there's Aztec/Maya as the descendants of the Olmecs.

Aztec and Maya are as descendant of the Olmecs as Italians and Germans are descendant of the Greeks.

Among them there's a bunch of small tribes that had smaller populations and appeared but aren't really recognized by the major tribes that had greater population.

Mesoamerican entities were city-states (Altepetl in Nahua) so if you see them as "tribes" so I guess you can talk also about the tribes of Genoa, Milan and Florence.

Besides, the region is a bit small on the map compared to other regions in the world.

Is the size of Western Europe and the most populous region of the whole Americas until 19th century. Despite the highly varied estimates for the total native population of the continent one thing were all the models agree is that Mesoamerica had more population that the whole rest of North America (including northen Mexico, southern Central America and the Caribbean) an in some models also more than whole South America.

Even now there are over 60 native languages from at least 10 different language families. From those there are 14 with more native speakers than Navajo the one with more speakers from USA+Canada.

In many ways Mesoamerica was the Mesopotamia or the Europe of the whole Western Hemisphere.

 

[reddishrecue]

Aztec and Maya are as descendant of the Olmecs as Italians and Germans are descendant of the Greeks.

Mesoamerican entities were city-states (Altepetl in Nahua) so if you see them as "tribes" so I guess you can talk also about the tribes of Genoa, Milan and Florence.

Is the size of Western Europe and the most populous region of the whole Americas until 19th century. Despite the highly varied estimates for the total native population of the continent one thing were all the models agree is that Mesoamerica had more population that the whole rest of North America (including northen Mexico, southern Central America and the Caribbean) an in some models also more than whole South America.

Even now there are over 60 native languages from at least 10 different language families. From those there are 14 with more native speakers than Navajo the one with more speakers from USA+Canada.

In many ways Mesoamerica was the Mesopotamia or the Europe of the whole Western Hemisphere.

What I meant with minor tribes is that there were a bunch of territories with different cultures that were native also not just the major Aztec and Maya. Also, there were a bunch of tribes in the north. Im not saying they had population but they were a lot and were different.

 

[Patine]

an in some models also more than whole South America.

These would have to be fringe, minority models, as most estimates have the Inca Empire being more populated than the Aztec Empire by 10 million, even up to 20 million people, at the time of the Spanish Contact, even if Tenochtitlan, itself, was about five times as big as Cuzco.

 

[dagriggstar]

I think Aztecs, Maya as major factions.

I’d like to see the Tarascan as a city state. I wouldn’t be opposed to any other city states either.

 

[Henri Christophe]

What Mesoamerican/Central American civs do you all want?

Toltecs!!!

 

[Evie]

There are so many interesting Mesoamerican civs (Zapotec, Mixtec, Purepecha, Teotihuacan...) beside the Big Two. I wish we'd get a rotating slot for the more obscure Mesoamerican civs beside Maya/Aztec.

But not for the Toltecs, whose chief claim to fame is that the Aztec made up stories about how badass they were.

 

[Patine]

Zapotec, Mixtec, Purepecha, Teotihuacan

These can easily be city-states in a Civ game.

But not for the Toltecs, whose chief claim to fame is that the Aztec made up stories about how badass they were.

I continue to staunchly agree.

 

[BuchiTaton]

These would have to be fringe, minority models, as most estimates have the Inca Empire being more populated than the Aztec Empire by 10 million, even up to 20 million people, at the time of the Spanish Contact, even if Tenochtitlan, itself, was about five times as big as Cuzco.

Broad long term worldwide compilatory projects like Angus Maddison's one put Mexico+Central America population estimate at year 1500 representing 40% of whole Americas population, a remarkable result considering that this region represent only 6% of whole America area. While by 1820 (after USA and Brazil grow up) New Spain still represented ~23% of America's population. About GDP in 1500 Mesoamerica represented ~37% of America's total, and by 1820 New Spain was ~20% of America´s total.

Even by looking to the map, Aztec Empire was less than 1/3 of Mesoamerica, the Mexica never controled even all of Central Mexico where the Puebla valley had notorious altpetls like Tlaxcala, Cholula and Huejotzinco, then also were out of Aztec control parts of Oaxaca, all the Maya region, Cetral American Mesoamerica, the North and West regions including the populous Purepecha Empire. Meanwhile Inca Empire despite was five times bigger than Aztec Empire was in average estimates only the double of populous (10-12M vs 5-6M), so doing the maths that gives us a five times more densely populated Aztec than Inca.

 

[Evie]

If the Purepecha can be a city-state, so can the Aztecs who are by no means materially different - both rival empires that ruled a very significant territory - but merely more famous.

Which is, really, true, but “can be a city state” does not imply “cannot be a civ”. I don’t see anything unreasonable in suggesting a single additional mesoamerican slot, rotating, so the region is not permanently locked into Aztec and Maya as it’s only two represented civs.

 

[BuchiTaton]

If the Purepecha can be a city-state, so can the Aztecs who are by no means materially different - both rival empires that ruled a very significant territory - but merely more famous.

Which is, really, true, but “can be a city state” does not imply “cannot ge a civ”. I don’t see anything unreasonable in suggesting a single additional mesoamerican slot, rotating, so the region is not permanently locked into Aztec and Maya as it’s only two represented civs.

I hope CIV7 can have a little more civs than CIV6 like every CIV until now had more than the previous. That way we can have a third slot for regions like Mesoamerica, Mesopotamia(Ancient Levant+Anatolia), Indochina(the whole peninsula), West and East Africa. All this regions were "mini worlds" by themselves with centuries of interesting interaction between different local powers of each region. Have more of those grow and interact in the broader "what if.." that CIV provide would be nice to see.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Oh, please not Gran Colombia, again. I'd much rather the Muisca in that area.

Gran Colombia was an amazing shot, I don't will mind if civ7 have Muisca, but I still believe is possible to have both.

Argentina only with a leader whose last name is NOT Peron...

Peron himself should be a great choice also, since he is so influential in Argentinian politics that even today there is Peronist party and anti-Peronist in Argentina.

But, I would prefer to see Uruguay instead of Argentina because I believe José Artigas should be a great leader.

Zapotec, Mixtec, Purepecha, Teotihuacan...

Zapotec and Mixtec should be included!!! They are main rivals and make sense add they together.
Purepecha can come after and Teotihuacan we don't know their language, so, it fit better as a city-state

But not for the Toltecs, whose chief claim to fame is that the Aztec made up stories about how badass they were.

I still believe what we know about Toltecs is more then enouth to draw a civ, maybe can be lie the fact of Toltecs being the biggest empire of Mesoamerica, but I can't believe they are all fake.

 

[Evie]

We know enough about Gondor or the Klingon to make them civs, too, but the game isn't about made-up civilizations.

Which is what our current understanding of the Toltecs is. Aztec fiction.

That doesn't mean the Toltecs didn't exist, they did exist, but we know almost nothing about who they *really* were.

 

[Patine]

Gran Colombia was an amazing shot, I don't will mind if civ7 have Muisca, but I still believe is possible to have both.

Peron himself should be a great choice also, since he is so influential in Argentinian politics that even today there is Peronist party and anti-Peronist in Argentina.

But, I would prefer to see Uruguay instead of Argentina because I believe José Artigas should be a great leader.

Zapotec and Mixtec should be included!!! They are main rivals and make sense add they together.
Purepecha can come after and Teotihuacan we don't know their language, so, it fit better as a city-state


I still believe what we know about Toltecs is more then enouth to draw a civ, maybe can be lie the fact of Toltecs being the biggest empire of Mesoamerica, but I can't believe they are all fake.

The Muisca have not been seen before, and Gran Colombia, as portrayed, is solely built around a leader.

Peron was a Fascist.

Montevideo should be a city-state, as Uruguay has always had a small role.

Too many civ's stacking Mesoamerica.

There is also no Toltec leader we know anything about as a PERSON, or in terms of HISTORICAL accomplished, and not all of the mythologized ones may have even existed. And their llaguage is unkown in certainty.

 

[Patine]

We know enough about Gondor or the Klingon to make them civs, too. But, much like what we "know" about the Toltecs, it's fiction.

Actually, to be pedantic, unlike Gondor, we don't have nearly enough names of cities on Q'onos, or interstellar colonies, to make a Kingon civ city name list.

 

[Evie]

Eh, considering the Scythians, I'm sure we can come up with *something* close enough to meet the stringent entry requirements for a city list.

(Anyway, we also don't have enough city names for the Toltecs, because we only know for sure about one Toltec city. Everything else is speculation.)