The Mesoamerican Thread

Evie said:
Eh, considering the Scythians, I'm sure we can come up with *something* close enough to meet the stringent entry requirements for a city list.

(Anyway, we also don't have enough city names for the Toltecs, because we only know for sure about one Toltec city. Everything else is speculation.)
Click to expand...
Yeah. Boris’ list of hypothetical Scythian cities (if they were to return, which I predict not) is pretty cool. Maybe a Toltec city state but nah since the Toltecs are more or less fictionalized
 
Caesar of Bread said:
Yeah. Boris’ list of hypothetical Scythian cities (if they were to return, which I predict not) is pretty cool. Maybe a Toltec city state but nah since the Toltecs are more or less fictionalized
Click to expand...
I agree. It would be like having Atlantis, the Kingdom of Beach.
 
Having a Tollan city state would be appropriate enough.

That said, removing Teotihuacan from the Aztec city list is far higher priority, because in every relevant way Teotihuacan is more important than the Toltecs.
 
For what it's worth, there's a Toltec mod for Civ5.

Here are the city and spy names:

Code: 
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_0">

            <Text>Tula</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_1">

            <Text>Huapalcalco</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_2">

            <Text>Tulancingo</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_3">

            <Text>Xochicalco</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_4">

            <Text>Malinalco</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_5">

            <Text>Tepozitlan</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_6">

            <Text>Teoloyucan</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_7">

            <Text>Tzintzuntzan</Text>

        </Row>

        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_8">

            <Text>Quemada</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_9">

            <Text>Atlacomulco</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_10">

            <Text>Chichen Itza</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_11">

            <Text>Teul</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_12">

            <Text>Itztepetl</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_13">

            <Text>Tetzmoliuhuacan</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_14">

            <Text>Chiconaulta</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_15">

            <Text>Xaloztoc</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_16">

            <Text>Mayapan</Text>

        </Row>

        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_17">

            <Text>Texcoco</Text>

        </Row>

        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_18">

            <Text>Izamal</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_19">

            <Text>Chalpultepec</Text>

        </Row>

        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_20">

            <Text>Motul</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_21">

            <Text>Culhuacan</Text>

        </Row>

        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_22">

            <Text>Chimalpan</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_23">

            <Text>Atazta</Text>

        </Row>

        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_24">

            <Text>Xico</Text>

        </Row>





        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_0">

            <Text>Huemac</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_1">

            <Text>Nacaxoc</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_2">

            <Text>Tecpancaltzin</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_3">

            <Text>Totopeuh</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_4">

            <Text>Ixtlilcuechahauac</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_5">

            <Text>Matlacxochtli</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_6">

            <Text>Xihuiquenitzin</Text>

            <Gender>feminine</Gender>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_7">

            <Text>Xipil</Text>

            <Gender>feminine</Gender>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_8">

            <Text>Yaotl</Text>

            <Gender>feminine</Gender>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_9">

            <Text>CENTEHUA</Text>

            <Gender>feminine</Gender>
 
Bonyduck Campersang said:
For what it's worth, there's a Toltec mod for Civ5.

Here are the city and spy names:

Code: 
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_0">

            <Text>Tula</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_1">

            <Text>Huapalcalco</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_2">

            <Text>Tulancingo</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_3">

            <Text>Xochicalco</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_4">

            <Text>Malinalco</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_5">

            <Text>Tepozitlan</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_6">

            <Text>Teoloyucan</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_7">

            <Text>Tzintzuntzan</Text>

        </Row>

        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_8">

            <Text>Quemada</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_9">

            <Text>Atlacomulco</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_10">

            <Text>Chichen Itza</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_11">

            <Text>Teul</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_12">

            <Text>Itztepetl</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_13">

            <Text>Tetzmoliuhuacan</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_14">

            <Text>Chiconaulta</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_15">

            <Text>Xaloztoc</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_16">

            <Text>Mayapan</Text>

        </Row>

        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_17">

            <Text>Texcoco</Text>

        </Row>

        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_18">

            <Text>Izamal</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_19">

            <Text>Chalpultepec</Text>

        </Row>

        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_20">

            <Text>Motul</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_21">

            <Text>Culhuacan</Text>

        </Row>

        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_22">

            <Text>Chimalpan</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_23">

            <Text>Atazta</Text>

        </Row>

        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RTOLTEC_24">

            <Text>Xico</Text>

        </Row>





        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_0">

            <Text>Huemac</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_1">

            <Text>Nacaxoc</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_2">

            <Text>Tecpancaltzin</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_3">

            <Text>Totopeuh</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_4">

            <Text>Ixtlilcuechahauac</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_5">

            <Text>Matlacxochtli</Text>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_6">

            <Text>Xihuiquenitzin</Text>

            <Gender>feminine</Gender>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_7">

            <Text>Xipil</Text>

            <Gender>feminine</Gender>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_8">

            <Text>Yaotl</Text>

            <Gender>feminine</Gender>

        </Row>


        <Row Tag="TXT_KEY_SPY_NAME_RTOLTEC_9">

            <Text>CENTEHUA</Text>

            <Gender>feminine</Gender>
Click to expand...
Still, that doesn't mean they WERE Toltec cities. I remember, several years ago, I saw (in the most recent column, actually) a mod for Civ4 or Civ5 that claimed to be a Harrappian civ mod. The, "leader," presented, complete with a portait, didn't come up on a Google search, or in Wikipedia, by the name given. So, I asked (out of sheer curiosity, as Civ4 and Civ5 are the two iterations I haven't played) where this leader, and their city-state, were derived from. I was utterly ignored...
 
Patine said:
Too many civ's stacking Mesoamerica.
Click to expand...
Aztec is one of the original civs and Maya are regular since they got in at CIV3*. Since then many regions had gained one or even more slots, Oceania, East Africa, Southeast Asia, South America, East Europe, Anatolia+Caucasus, Central Asia, etc. Also many of the civs for those slots are alternating version to version to occupy those roles.
So, is obvious that both Aztec and Maya are so important that they are seen as must civs that are always part of every civ game. Then to open place for another mesoamerican civ we can not just replace Aztec or Maya we need another slot for the region. And looking from the trend from every new CIV game there are not total number, regional quota, cultural diversity, historical relevance, population or area justificaction to deny another slot for Mesoamerica.
 
Last edited:
BuchiTaton said:
Aztec is one of the original civs and Maya are regular since they got in at CIV4. Since then many regions had gained one or even more slots, Oceania, East Africa, Southeast Asia, South America, East Europe, Anatolia+Caucasus, Central Asia, etc. Also many of the civs for those slots are alternating version to version to occupy those roles.
So, is obvious that both Aztec and Maya are so important that they are seen as must civs that are always part of every civ game. Then to open place for another mesoamerican civ we can not just replace Aztec or Maya we need another slot for the region. And looking from the trend from every new CIV game there are not total number, regional quota, cultural diversity, historical relevance, population or area justificaction to deny another slot for Mesoamerica.
Click to expand...
Don't get me wrong, here. ONE more slot is reasonable. Henri, whom I was responding to, was talking about like FIVE more slots (including a mostly mythologized one). I, myself, would love to see more Andean civ's, but unfortunately, other than the Inca, they suffer from the Harrappian or Olmec problem. I also, definitely, believe the Muisca should get a slot over a reprisal of Gran Colombia.
 
Patine said:
Don't get me wrong, here. ONE more slot is reasonable. Henri, whom I was responding to, was talking about like FIVE more slots (including a mostly mythologized one). I, myself, would love to see more Andean civ's, but unfortunately, other than the Inca, they suffer from the Harrappian or Olmec problem. I also, definitely, believe the Muisca should get a slot over a reprisal of Gran Colombia.
Click to expand...
A change from Colombia+Mapuche to Muisca+Argentina would be a nice solution. Muisca are technically on the Andes but for a proper andean civ Chimor have enough to be playable, still less likely.
 
I mean, how much is reasonable depends greatly on how many are added (and removed), but yeah, absent evidence that we're getting a lot more civs (and I really don't think we will), one more Mesoamerican civ is what I agree is the most reasonable goal based on what we currently know.
 
BuchiTaton said:
A change from Colombia+Mapuche to Muisca+Argentina would be a nice solution. Muisca are technically on the Andes but for a proper andean civ Chimor have enough to be playable, still less likely.
Click to expand...
As I said, Argentina would be alright, as long as a certain last name does not grace it's leader.
 
Patine said:
As I said, Argentina would be alright, as long as a certain last name does not grace it's leader.
Click to expand...
For Latin America, I’d have
MESOAMERICA:
- Aztec
- Maya
CS - La Venta, Tollan, Mexico City
CARIBBEAN:
- Haiti
CS - Kingston or Havana
SOUTH AMERICA:
- Musica
- Inca
- Brazil
- Mapuche
- Argentina or Paraguay/Guarani (?). I’d be all for an Argentina that doesn’t have any Peron
CS - Montevideo, Nazca ig, Bogota, Santiago de Chile
 
Caesar of Bread said:
Kingston
Click to expand...
In historical importance (unless the Rastifari Movement was your main focus), Port Royale was long the more important city of Jamaica. As for the Maroons, they didn't build cities, but more resistance, "shanty-camps," that were not meant for permanance, of which picking out a, "most important," would be very difficult.
 
Patine said:
In historical importance (unless the Rastifari Movement was your main focus), Port Royale was long the more important city of Jamaica. As for the Maroons, they didn't build cities, but more resistance, "shanty-camps," that were not meant for permanance, of which picking out a, "most important," would be very difficult.
Click to expand...
Oh that‘s the city I meant! I’ll replace it soon (I was trying to think of the city from Pirates of the Carribean. I think it is Port Royal. Yeah, it is.)
 
Caesar of Bread said:
For Latin America, I’d have
MESOAMERICA:
- Aztec
- Maya
CS - La Venta, Tollan, Mexico City
CARIBBEAN:
- Haiti
CS - Kingston or Havana
SOUTH AMERICA:
- Musica
- Inca
- Brazil
- Mapuche
- Argentina or Paraguay/Guarani (?). I’d be all for an Argentina that doesn’t have any Peron
CS - Montevideo, Nazca ig, Bogota, Santiago de Chile
Click to expand...

Tiwanaku was never an Incan city and was long abandoned before the rise of the Incan Empire. Not sure why it is on their city list and is not a city state.
 
Phrozen said:
Tiwanaku was never an Incan city and was long abandoned before the rise of the Incan Empire. Not sure why it is on their city list and is not a city state.
Click to expand...
Same with Teotihuacan in the Aztec city list, they also have Mixtec, Totonac and Huastec cities on that list. :crazyeye:
Caesar of Bread said:
For Latin America, I’d have
MESOAMERICA:
- Aztec
- Maya
CS - La Venta, Tollan, Mexico City
CARIBBEAN:
- Haiti
CS - Kingston or Havana
SOUTH AMERICA:
- Musica
- Inca
- Brazil
- Mapuche
- Argentina or Paraguay/Guarani (?). I’d be all for an Argentina that doesn’t have any Peron
CS - Montevideo, Nazca ig, Bogota, Santiago de Chile
Click to expand...
A fair list. Just my take in some points:
* The real first Tollan was not Tula (the Toltec one) but Teotihuacan, so if you mean Teotihuacan that is perfect. But if is about Tula the Toltecs are a lesser options even as city states. Tula despite being more recent was way smaller and lasted less than Teotihuacan.
* There are also many others options for Mesoamerican CS, like Tzintzuntzan as militaristic, Tajin as diplomatic, DaniBaan as scientific, etc.
* Mexico City is redundant with Tenochtitlan (if is mean to be only a city state). Also I know there are some "city states" in CIV that are capitals of big countries but personally I think this is kind of lame. Also looking to Ottomans-Byzantium there is no reason to not have Mexico as playable civ. Lest be honest most of the civ market know more about Mexico that any other hispanoamerican country, for example in AoE3 both Aztec and Mexico are full playable civs. After civs like Scotland and Canada Mexico is a likely options for pure market recognition.
* Mapuche is unlikely to become into a regular, their role as native american raiding horsemen overlaps with many popular USA native american nations.
* About Montevideo I am not sure, Uruguayans are closely related to Argentinians. Still, pretty much fit well into the City States role.
* Bogota + Bacata (Muiscas) is the same that MexicoCity + Tenochtitlan. A better option would be Caracas.
 
BuchiTaton said:
Same with Teotihuacan in the Aztec city list, they also have Mixtec, Totonac and Huastec cities on that list. :crazyeye:
Click to expand...
Don't the Chinese have Lhasa and Qashgar, if I'm not mistaken?
 
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