The Thread Where We Discuss Guns and Gun Control

[Tahuti]

US homicide rates are substantially higher than comparable first world countries. You're about 5 times more likely to be murdered in the USA than Australia, ten timnes as likely than in many Western European countries, about twice as likely than in much of eastern Europe.

The homicide rates in the US may be rather the result from a complex of factors, including poor psychiatric practices (forced medication with antidepressants can make anyone a spree-killer), anomie stemming from income inequalities and possibly crime stemming from drug prohibition as well.

I don't think that has to do with the US gun laws at all. Australia, Finland, Germany, Israel, Sweden and Switzerland are countries with a gun ownership rate fairly comparable to the USA (I think there are even more guns per capita in Finland and Sweden than in US) and none of the them have nearly the same homicide rate as has the US.

Dutch gun control laws were not introduced to contain crime, they were introduced to prevent a socialist revolution, as these were introduced around the time of, and in reaction to, the Russian revolution. Whether anti-communism has made the Netherlands safer in terms of homicide rates, I'd rather not dwell on.

 

[EgonSpengler]

It came from the Declaration of Independence.

Oh, right. That doesn't explain the guys who "self deploy" to public events, but I'm not sure anything does.

And that issue was settled in 1886 in the Presser v. Illinois ruling that struck down the idea that citizens could form their own private armies. That ruling also established that weapon ownership is an individual right, not a militia right. It is from that ruling that the current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment came from. That interpretation being that the well-regulated militia and the right to bear arms are merely two separate concepts contained within the same amendment.

Yeah, I think that was Scalia in the Washington DC handguns case. iirc, he also recognized the distinction between military weapons and personal defense weapons, which I imagine must rankle the "we must be prepared to fight the government" crowd. The Wikipedia entry on Presser v Ill. doesn't seem to mention individual rights, focusing more on states rights, but I only skimmed it. Maybe I'll read Presser this weekend, if it's not too long.

 

[El_Machinae]

The homicide rates in the US may be rather the result from a complex of factors, including poor psychiatric practices (forced medication with antidepressants can make anyone a spree-killer), anomie stemming from income inequalities and possibly crime stemming from drug prohibition as well.

I'd agree that these are all factors. And they all have specific interventions that would be superior to laws that affect gun ownership. I'd blame "all people" for lack of progress on mental health, a mixture of bad actors and bad policy on income inequalities, and the drug prohibition will be much lower on the list, but on the list (in that, removing drug prohibition won't have a long-term effect unless the first two are addressed. Drug trade is an outlet of the first two issues).

I don't think that has to do with the US gun laws at all. Australia, Finland, Germany, Israel, Sweden and Switzerland are countries with a gun ownership rate fairly comparable to the USA (I think there are even more guns per capita in Finland and Sweden than in US) and none of the them have nearly the same homicide rate as has the US.

I suspect that the major difference is that they view it as a privilege and not a right. Most 2Aers who're 'afraid they're coming for our guns' are running into the paradox of believing they should qualify for the privilege, but actually will not. As noted, Canada is able to have high levels of gun ownership, but just switching privilege/right discussion lets us filter our owners much more usefully. Rather than using, say, poverty as the deciding factor as to what types of guns someone can own.

This is significant seeing how both US liberals and their Canadian idols (as @El_Machinae has alluded to) seem to operate under the assumption that rifles more so than handguns are the problem.

What do you mean by this? Canada is more careful with handgun licenses and storage/carry. Our rifle license/carry/storage is remarkably easy-going. I can just drive around with a rifle. Our major advancement on rifle is limiting magazine capacity, which will reduce the net-murder when someone is trying to mass-murder.

 

[metatron]

What do you mean by this? [...] Our major advancement on rifle is limiting magazine capacity, which will reduce the net-murder when someone is trying to mass-murder.

You answered your own question i think.
It seems to be implicit that we disagree on either the upsides or the downsides (i suspect both) of this policy.

 

[El_Machinae]

"Canada operates as if handguns aren't the problem"

"We regulate handguns more tightly"

"Exactly my point"

???

 

[El_Machinae]

We don't regulate handguns more carefully than rifles?

 

[El_Machinae]

You seem to be targeting the folly of American liberals. In fairness to them, American conservatives don't seem to be embracing any of our successes.

It sure took me a long time to figure out what you meant. Might be an ESL thing, your original phrasing was that Canadians seemed to ignore the threat that pistols were in lieu of focusing on rifle magazines.

 

[Farm Boy]

Don't worry metatron, you just don't speak fluently enough, apparently. News to me.

The smell is pretty thick in here.

 

[Farm Boy]

Well, we know it isn't the English. You could speak only English, communicate with what seems like some semblance of adroitness with your peers, and in this oft described echo chamber, the second you depart slightly from the script your words will be misunderstood and misconstrued into (to continue with the Labarynth reference earlier) whatever villian the fairytale needs at the moment.

 

[Arwon]

I don't think that has to do with the US gun laws at all. Australia, Finland, Germany, Israel, Sweden and Switzerland are countries with a gun ownership rate fairly comparable to the USA (I think there are even more guns per capita in Finland and Sweden than in US) and none of the them have nearly the same homicide rate as has the US.

We also have like, rigorous licensing, and enforced safe storage laws. You don't just carry a gun around, or keep it in any way handy to you for spur of the moment access. And you don't just decide to go buy one.

 

[Cutlass]

This is why we can't have nice things.

A toddler was playing with her father's handgun when she shot her pregnant mother Tuesday in a northwest Indiana parking lot, according to media reports.

A 3-year-old girl in the back seat of a vehicle when she shot her pregnant mother outside Plato's Closet in the 300 block of 81st Avenue in Merrillville at 3:52 p.m., WMAQ-TV (Channel 5) Chicago reported.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news...r-shoots-pregnant-mom-merrillville/527416002/

 

[Timsup2nothin]

This is why we can't have nice things.




https://www.indystar.com/story/news...r-shoots-pregnant-mom-merrillville/527416002/

Thank goodness there was a good three year old with a gun! No telling what sort of criminal activity was thwarted here.

 

[Lexicus]

Thank goodness there was a good three year old with a gun! No telling what sort of criminal activity was thwarted here.

She probably used it in self-defense at least six times before the accident. Probably like ten times.

 

[Synobun]

Where's Alex Jones to call this a liberal hoax to take your guns away?

 

[Cutlass]

Thank goodness there was a good three year old with a gun! No telling what sort of criminal activity was thwarted here.

That unborn baby is Charles Manson reincarnated.

 

[Arakhor]

So, can the father be prosecuted for criminal negligence or improper use of firearms?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

So, can the father be prosecuted for criminal negligence or improper use of firearms?

I would certainly say that leaving a loaded gun where a toddler can get hold of it is both negligent and improper.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I would certainly say that leaving a loaded gun where a toddler can get hold of it is both negligent and improper.

Yeah, but you're Canadian. In the more advanced culture of the US we know that an unarmed toddler is an open invitation to criminals of all sorts, and if we could just get the weak kneed liberals to agree to arming every toddler instead of just some of them all societal problems would be solved.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Reminds me of the onion movie

A 4 year old boy has fatally exercised his 2nd amendment rights in what gun rights activists are calling a victory for America, and the Constitution.

 

[Cutlass]

So, can the father be prosecuted for criminal negligence or improper use of firearms?

Yeah. But the penalty will be trivial to the crime.