To riot? The case of political vandalism...

[nc-1701]

So apparently there was a riot or something in Baltimore, or at least that's what my Facebook feed says. However I'm going to ignore it's specifics for a bit and look at the reactions to it, or more precisely the negative ones.

The case is pretty open and shut, rioting/looting destroys property without any benefit. Often plunging the area already afflicted by poverty into a worse situation, which then spirals even further. Thus not only failing in it's assumed goals of political change, but also harming those who want change and destroying there case, like the store they loot and burn. These are just short sighted thugs seizing the opportunity to behave like hooligans, or so their detractors say. People with a little more sympathy to the case being made will shake their head and complain of the "senseless destruction".

But tinged with racism or not the point stands and is difficult to argue with, burning down a community center doesn't appear to advance the case against police violence very much. Even if you are angry and feel like the protesters do it's hard to sit down and make a rational case for looting and vandalism.

But...

Let's leave America for a second, or even just leave our time. It's not very hard to find examples of violent and destructive mobs starting things that turned out well, or at least that we have a hard time criticizing.

The Boston Tea Party being the most Patriotic example, and in many ways representing a situation not that dissimilar to a modern riot. Alternatively Westerners of all political stripes were generally supportive of Euromaiden, or the protests in Syria/Egypt/Libya. These started peacefully, but descended into riots and looting as well, though perhaps not as openly as the Boston Tea Party.


How do we reconcile this without resorting to a statement about vandalism being a force for good if "freedom fighters Patriots" are doing it and bad when "Terrorists Thugs" are doing it?

 

[BvBPL]

I'd start with distinguishing riots from protests. Despite your usage, they are not interchangeable.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Peaceful protests can easily turn into riots. Sometimes the fault is with the police and sometimes it is with the protesters or even with a bystander who just wants a new TV.

 

[nc-1701]

I'd start with distinguishing riots from protests. Despite your usage, they are not interchangeable.

That would be a great start! So what's the difference between a riot and a non-peaceful protest?

 

[Commodore]

The Boston Tea Party being the most Patriotic example, and in many ways representing a situation not that dissimilar to a modern riot. Alternatively Westerners of all political stripes were generally supportive of Euromaiden, or the protests in Syria/Egypt/Libya. These started peacefully, but descended into riots and looting as well, though perhaps not as openly as the Boston Tea Party?

The difference between the incidents you mention and the riots in Ferguson and Baltimore is the focus of the violence. In the incidents you mention, a majority of the violence was directed at whatever it was they were opposing. In Ferguson and Baltimore, the violence is mostly focused on looting for personal gain.

I mean, in the Boston Tea Party you didn't see the perpetrators carting off crates of tea for their own personal use. No, they dumped it all in the ocean to make a political statement. In Ferguson and Baltimore, you just have mobs of people using an event as an excuse to get that new flatscreen or smartphone they've been wanting but couldn't afford.

 

[BvBPL]

I'd say a riot is inherently non-political. The trouble with this develops from when the protest turns violent and escalates into a riot.

 

[JollyRoger]

That would be a great start! So what's the difference between a riot and a non-peaceful protest?

Pigmentation

 

[Smellincoffee]

The mob involved in the Boston massacre were cretins, as are those in Baltimore presently. Taking part in something that can explode so violently is grossly irresponsible. I despise the police state, but violent mobs only increase police powers by justifying public fears of mobs looting cities. They are feeding the beast they feel attacked by.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The mob involved in the Boston massacre were cretins, as are those in Baltimore presently. Taking part in something that can explode so violently is grossly irresponsible. I despise the police state, but violent mobs only increase police powers by justifying public fears of mobs looting cities. They are feeding the beast they feel attacked by.

At this point the public is starting to come around to the idea that while damage to the cities does occur, the mob's focus is actually on the police...and in that regard may well be justified. I don't think the general public is going to accept increased police powers as a potential solution.

 

[BvBPL]

The mob involved in the Boston massacre were cretins, as are those in Baltimore presently. Taking part in something that can explode so violently is grossly irresponsible. I despise the police state, but violent mobs only increase police powers by justifying public fears of mobs looting cities. They are feeding the beast they feel attacked by.

And yet the Tea Party very much lead to the introduction of a republic of limited powers. The Baron's War lead to the Magna Carta.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

And yet the Tea Party very much lead to the introduction of a republic of limited powers. The Baron's War lead to the Magna Carta.

It has been pointed out earlier in the thread though, and I feel the need to reiterate it, that the Boston Tea Party and these current riots are not comparable. The Boston Tea Party specifically targeted what they were mad at... they were angry about tax issues and the British crown forcing Company goods on them, and they targeted a ship carrying Company tea. An effective, organized way to make their point. I watched video footage on the news earlier of the mob in Baltimore systematically looting a CVS pharmacy. Unless you can show me some compelling evidence that indicates CVS may be a branch of the Baltimore Police Department, then looting and burning that building was just unfocused, unproductive aggression. I'm all for civil disobedience, even destructive civil disobedience if the situation calls for it, but it has to be focused and aimed at a specific goal, not just a bunch of people running amok.

 

[Commodore]

It has been pointed out earlier in the thread though, and I feel the need to reiterate it, that the Boston Tea Party and these current riots are not comparable. The Boston Tea Party specifically targeted what they were mad at... they were angry about tax issues and the British crown forcing Company goods on them, and they targeted a ship carrying Company tea. An effective, organized way to make their point. I watched video footage on the news earlier of the mob in Baltimore systematically looting a CVS pharmacy. Unless you can show me some compelling evidence that indicates CVS may be a branch of the Baltimore Police Department, then looting and burning that building was just unfocused, unproductive aggression. I'm all for civil disobedience, even destructive civil disobedience if the situation calls for it, but it has to be focused and aimed at a specific goal, not just a bunch of people running amok.

Exactly. Now I know I'm probably going to be called an authoritarian and probably a racist for saying this but: I think we really need to consider the very real possibility that the looting and burning may, in fact, be the specific goal of the rioters with the anger at police just being a "cover for action" to justify why they are running amok in the streets.

 

[Future PM]

Pigmentation

Meh, whiteys have been known to riot.

Star Hotel Riot.

That's right, people who clicked the link; Australia's most famous riot was caused by a pub closure. No, I don't believe you when you act surprised. And I agree, that Wiki page is terribly written.

Of course, most of the targetted whiteys were gay, so it's still a classic case of the state apparatus targeting a minority group until it finally snaps.

It has been pointed out earlier in the thread though, and I feel the need to reiterate it, that the Boston Tea Party and these current riots are not comparable. The Boston Tea Party specifically targeted what they were mad at... they were angry about tax issues and the British crown forcing Company goods on them, and they targeted a ship carrying Company tea. An effective, organized way to make their point. I watched video footage on the news earlier of the mob in Baltimore systematically looting a CVS pharmacy. Unless you can show me some compelling evidence that indicates CVS may be a branch of the Baltimore Police Department, then looting and burning that building was just unfocused, unproductive aggression. I'm all for civil disobedience, even destructive civil disobedience if the situation calls for it, but it has to be focused and aimed at a specific goal, not just a bunch of people running amok.

There was a riot in an Aboriginal community in Queensland about ten years ago, in response to the acquittal of a police officer who did exactly what police allegedly did to this black chap in Boston. Simply put, he quite blatantly beat an Aboriginal man in custody to death. All of this was caught on camera, (it was fairly brutal and hard to watch, he repeatedly kneed a 50 year old homeless man in the back of the head while he begged for help, until his voice trailed off with a gargle) and an all-white jury in Brisbane, Queensland's capital city and about as distant culturally from Palm Island as you can get and still be in Queensland, somehow found him completely innocent.

The Palm Island Aboriginal community burnt down the courthouse, the police station, every police vehicle they could find, then proceeded to calmly go about their business. It didn't end up accomplishing anything, but at least it was a relatively proportional response. When you turn your attention to non-involved industries, like a pharmacy, you've crossed the line.

 

[Future PM]

Exactly. Now I know I'm probably going to be called an authoritarian and probably a racist for saying this but: I think we really need to consider the very real possibility that the looting and burning may, in fact, be the specific goal of the rioters with the anger at police just being a "cover for action" to justify why they are running amok in the streets.

It's probably more likely that a few people got angry and threw rocks, a few more joined in, then bystanders got involved, some entrepreneurial young gentlemen decided that the broken window in the liquor store was an invitation, etc.. Snowball effect.

It's highly unlikely anything this widespread could have been coordinated, though I have read rumours that the reason the police basically stood back and let the city burn overnight was because of some sort of gang truce aimed at killing police officers. That could simply be an ex post facto excuse for lack of police action though.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Pigmentation

Meh, whiteys have been known to riot.

Either you missed the point, or I just read that differently.

 

[Commodore]

It's probably more likely that a few people got angry and threw rocks, a few more joined in, then bystanders got involved, some entrepreneurial young gentlemen decided that the broken window in the liquor store was an invitation, etc.. Snowball effect.

It's highly unlikely anything this widespread could have been coordinated, though I have read rumours that the reason the police basically stood back and let the city burn overnight was because of some sort of gang truce aimed at killing police officers. That could simply be an ex post facto excuse for lack of police action though.

I actually don't have a problem with the police hanging back and letting the city burn. I see it as the police showing the people what life would be like if they gave the people what they wanted and took a more hands-off approach to policing. I keep hearing some protestors chanting about getting the police out of their neighborhood. Okay fine, the police will leave, but don't come crying to them when a band of hooligans burn your business down and steal all your crap.

 

[Future PM]

I actually don't have a problem with the police hanging back and letting the city burn. I see it as the police showing the people what life would be like if they gave the people what they wanted and took a more hands-off approach to policing. I keep hearing some protestors chanting about getting the police out of their neighborhood. Okay fine, the police will leave, but don't come crying to them when a band of hooligans burn your business down and steal all your crap.

I say we should let the market decide.

 

[nc-1701]

Isn't that CVS Pharmacy and in fact any other local business that pays taxes directly supporting and bankrolling the Baltimore police? Certainly that would make them legitimate targets in a war, why not a riot?

 

[Commodore]

Isn't that CVS Pharmacy and in fact any other local business that pays taxes directly supporting and bankrolling the Baltimore police? Certainly that would make them legitimate targets in a war, why not a riot?

No, that does not make them legitimate targets in warfare. Read up on the Law of Land Warfare to get an idea of what is and is not considered a legitimate target in war.

As to whether or not businesses would be a legitimate target in a riot: There is no such thing as a legitimate target in a riot because a riot is just mass-thuggery and, as such, has absolutely zero claim to any kind of legitimacy. Even if we assume they did have a claim to legitimacy, businesses still would not be a legitimate target because the tax dollars they pay also go towards funding the social programs that a great number of the rioters undoubtedly benefit from.

 

[warpus]

The people are lashing out due to the many injustices they face on a day to day basis. It's not right, but I understand their frustrations.

I'm not sure if I would riot.. I keep telling myself "probably not". But if I lived in a racist segregated society that didn't seem to care about people of my skin colour, I very well might.