Ukraine Crisis News Thread

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Russia's military spending per capita is less than spending of Canada, Sweden or Belgium. About twice less than France's or UK's. I'm not even considering really militaristic countries like USA or Israel.
GDP fraction of defense budget is 4%-4.5%, which is pretty moderate.
It is a phenomenon of the sociology of conflict, that when two parties simply don't trust each other enough to even agree on the basic outline of a situation, one of the things they can resort to is — quantification. I.e. counting stuff. Still, the figures themselves even when agreed upon, require interpretation as to what they are supposed to mean.

Figure pulled from SIPRI, among the lists collected on the wikipedia page about military spending. I'm rounding off the figures a tad too, to not clutter it up too much:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

Your figure are off for the examples other than Canada, which spends about 750+ USD/capita compared to a Russian 640. Sweden spends in the range of 620 and Belgium 510. And that's two 10 million countries that don't get any of the scale effects Russia does at pop 140 million, or even Canada with 30 million. Small countries always need to spend proportionally more to just maintain a lot of basic military capabilities, since these can't fall below a certain volume and still be viable.

It's in the relative expenditures things get weird. What the figures really point to is how relatively economically weak Russia is compared to western Europe and north America. And yet Russia makes the political decision it needs to spend a LOT more on guns than on butter relative everyone else... It's been duly noted. (Especially when the stuff Russia spends its money on ends up outside Russia.)

As for a 4,4% of GDP being a "moderate" level, that's extremely questionable. Compared to what? Compared to the Soviet Union's military expense? Positively frugal...
Compared to the US? About the same. But then again, would a Russian consider the US military expenditure "moderate"? It's not really how it's otherwise seen...
Compared to the western Europeans, 4,4% is huge. It's 11th place globally alongside the US. Most of the countries ahead of Russia on the list tend to be Mid eastern (Saudi, Jordan, UAE, Isreal), at war more or less (Azeris) and/or nuts (NK, Eritrea).

More relevant actually is that even at the height the Cold War, the NATO European expenditure tended to hover around 3%. The end of the cold war has meant a reduction to somewhere in the 1-2,5% range, with France and the UK in the upper end, and not least because both maintain their of strategic nuclear forces, which cost a fair amount of money, something that admittedly has to be extended to Russia as well.

For a peace-time economy Russian military spending is high. In relation to the size of the population it's relatively high, but not exceptional. As an expression of economic priorities, in relation to the overall size of the economy, the Russian figure is again decidedly high. In absolute numbers in a global comparison, it's the third highest in the world...

It's perhaps "moderate" compared to Israel, or the US, and certainly to the old Soviet Union. But for a country as relatively economically weak as Russia, population size making up for a fair amount of the relative weakness, the numbers are strikingly high; i.e. "militarization".

If we all spent like Russia did, the list would go something like this:
Spoiler :

Future/as is:
1 US: 682/682 bn
2 China: 348/166,1 bn
3 Japan: 261/59,3 bn
4 Germany: 144/45,8 bn
5 France: 113/59 bn
6 UK: 107/61 bn
7 Brazil: 97/33,1 bn
8 Russia: 90/90 bn
9 Italy: 88/34 bn
10 India: 84/47,7 bn
11 Canada: 76,5/22,6 bn
12 Australia: 67,5/26,1 bn
13 Mexico: 61,6/7 bn
14 Spain: 60/11,5 bn
15 S Korea: 51/31,6 bn
16 Indonesia: 42,7/6,8 bn
17 Turkey: 35/18,2 bn
18 Netherlands: 33/9,8 bn
19 Switzerland: 30,2/4,8 bn
20 Saudi: 29/56,7 bn
21 Poland: 22/9,4 bn
22 Sweden: 22,7/6,2 bn
23 Norway: 22/7 bn
24 Argentina: 21/4,3 bn
25 Belgium: 20,4/5,1 bn
26 Taiwan: 20/10,7 bn
27 Venezuela: 18/4 bn
28 Austria: 17,6/3,2 bn
29 Colombia: 16,1/12,1 bn
30 Thailand: 15,8/5,4 bn
31 Iran: 15,4/6,3 bn
32 Denmark: 13,8/4,4 bn
33 Malaysia: 13,8/4,7 bn
34 S Africa: 13,5/4,6 bn
35 Singapore: 11,9/9,7 bn
36 Chile: 11,5/5,5 bn
37 Greece: 11,4/6,5 bn
38 Egypt: 11,4/4,4 bn
39 Pakistan: 11,4/7 bn
40 Philippines: 11/3 bn
41 Finland: 10,9/3,7 bn
42 Israel: 10,4/14,6 bn
43 Nigeria: 10,3/2,3 bn
44 Iraq: 9,8/6 bn
45 Portugal: 9,3/3,8 bn
46 UAE: 9,2/14,4 bn
47 Algeria: 9,1/9,3 bn
48 Peru: 8,8/2,6 bn
49 Kazakhstan: 8,8/2,4 bn
50 Czech Rep: 8,8/2,2 bn
51 Romania: 8,1/2,2 bn
52 Ukraine: 8/4,9 bn
53 Vietnam: 6,2/3,4 bn
54 Morocco: 4,3/3,4 bn
55 Angola: 4,3/4,1 bn
56 Libya: 4,1/3 bn
57 Oman: 3,5/6,7 bn
58 Sudan: 3,2/2,5 bn
59 Azerbaijan: 3/3,2 bn
...N Korea: 1,75/10 bn

Just the EU contries on the top-60 list as an aggregate currently outspends Russia 3:1. Should it raise its expense-level to the current Russian one, Russia would be outspent closer to 8:1. Just the four Nordic countries in a defense union with Russian levels of expenditure would be pitting a 70bn aggregate against the Russian 90bn. That's supposedly moderate spending?

But maybe after all we all should spend 4,4% on our militaries, seeing how to a Russian evaluation it's so very reasonable and moderate? If things keep up like they've started, we might be looking at something like that.

It's just that almost no one spends on arms like Russia does, and an adjustment to the Russian "moderate" level would going to trigger The Mother Of All Arms Races the likes of which we haven't seen, well, since the 1930's or so...

Hell, even the South Koreans, preparing to fight off the North Koreans if worst comes to worst, would need to up their spending some 40% to reach Russian levels. Similarly the Taiwanese need a 100% increase, while preparing to fend of mainland China. In the Korean or Taiwanese cases, everybody KNOWS who the hardware and troops are FOR. In the matter of the massive Russian build-up, well? Except that it is decidedly not friendly-looking...
 
Of course. USA huge war machine is beyond anything else. It is a militaristic country, THE militaristic country i would say. But no doubt Russia would expend about the same as USA if it could.
There is no doubt. Russia is old-fashioned European power after all. We trust our army more then in promises of peaceful future.
 
Your figure are off for the examples other than Canada, which spends about 750+ USD/capita compared to a Russian 640. Sweden spends in the range of 620 and Belgium 510. And that's two 10 million countries that don't get any of the scale effects Russia does at pop 140 million, or even Canada with 30 million. Small countries always need to spend proportionally more to just maintain a lot of basic military capabilities, since these can't fall below a certain volume and still be viable.
Small countries probably need to spend more proportionally, but as I said before, not small countries such as France and UK spend twice more per capita, than "militaristic" Russia. I used examples of Belgium and Sweden, only because they are quite comparable with Russia by this parameter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures_per_capita

As for a 4,4% of GDP being a "moderate" level, that's extremely questionable. Compared to what?
It was already answered. Moderate level, taking into account Russia's geopolitical position, length of borders, stability of its neighbors and other stuff.
 
It was already answered. Moderate level, taking into account Russia's geopolitical position, length of borders, stability of its neighbors and other stuff.
Moderation is not in evidence.
 
Moderation is not in evidence.
Russia's per capita defense spending is less than that of many European countries, despite Russia faces much more serious threats to stability, comparing to Europe. It's evident enough in my book.
 
Russia's per capita defense spending is less than that of many European countries, despite Russia faces much more serious threats to stability, comparing to Europe. It's evident enough in my book.
It's (not) funny how Verbose made an extremely long, detailed and thought-out post, and you just shrug it off and goes back to repeat what was shown as meaningless by it.

Meh, intellectual honesty is outdated I guess.
 
The European Union has given Russia one week to reverse course in Ukraine or face new sanctions.

European Council President Herman Van Rompuy said the EU was working urgently on further restrictive measures.

Earlier, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said his country was "close to a point of no return - full scale-war" with Russia.

Russia denies Western accusations that its forces have illegally crossed into Ukraine to support separatists there.

Pro-Russian rebels have made gains against Ukrainian troops in recent days in the eastern Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

Some 2,600 people have died in [the] fighting.

In full: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29001596
 
Russia's per capita defense spending is less than that of many European countries, despite Russia faces much more serious threats to stability, comparing to Europe. It's evident enough in my book.
I give up. :rolleyes:
 
I meant, first of all, a war between South Ossetia and Georgia, which happened in 1990-s. And ethnic cleansings which were committed by both sides of the conflict. Just to get you familiar with how the suggestion that it would be better for South Ossetians to live in Georgia sounds like. And for you to know that South Ossetia wasn't annexed and not part of Russia - so that you'll be more careful next time before posting the stuff you have no idea about.

OK I agree that South Ossetia seeked independence and that resulted in a war. Along with yet another war in Abkhazia.
The Russian war in Chechnya just to the North suppress independence
The Russian war in Ingushetia to suppress independence

Seems like this area is like a powder keg and is constantly being Balkanisationed
 
It's (not) funny how Verbose made an extremely long, detailed and thought-out post, and you just shrug it off and goes back to repeat what was shown as meaningless by it.
Length of post is irrelevant as long as it doesn't address the points made by me. For example about spending per capita argument - he said that Belgium and Sweden are small countries and suppose to have relatively larger spending. Somehow missing that I mentioned also USA, France and Britain in that comparison.

Eh, you keep posting these maps as if they were an authoritative source or something.
This map gives explanation of rebels appearance in Novoazovsk. I find your idea about teleportation device quite encouraging, but less probable.
 
Well, that MIGHT be more important than we perhaps think. Or not, if we're unlucky.

The big question is IF the EU, in concert with the US one would assume, was to go all in to directly force Russia to back down through the imposition of sanctions, i.e. no military funny business, can it do it, and what would it take? What level of sanctions might make Putin blink, provided the EU is prepared to take the financial hit to itself?
 
Russia's per capita defense spending is less than that of many European countries, despite Russia faces much more serious threats to stability, comparing to Europe. It's evident enough in my book.
We might agree, if Russia wasn't upgrading its military towards a decidedly offensive profile. We know what armed forces geared primarily towards national defense looks like. Russia's profile don't quite fit.
 
Length of post is irrelevant as long as it doesn't address the points made by me.
Except it precisely DOES adress your points.
For example about spending per capita argument - he said that Belgium and Sweden are small countries and suppose to have relatively larger spending. Somehow missing that I mentioned also USA, France and Britain in that comparison.
He doesn't miss it, he specifically talk about it. YOU seem to have missing quite a bit though :rolleyes:

Grasp at straws more...
 
Yes they are being supplied. They have stuff to trade, since their end of Ukraine is pretty much where all industrial production in the country happens, and their neighbor is the second largest arms dealing nation on the planet. That works out.

Yes, there are Ukraine born and Russian born Russians fighting with them by the thousands. How you promote them all to officers is an interesting question. If you think they are Russian military units, that's an interesting speculation. If the Russian military invades Ukraine I expect the fighting to be very short. The only question will be how much effective long term resistance there would be against the occupation.

I don't think they are trading anything, they are being supplied with advanced weaponry and military personnel for "free", because they are doing Russia's bidding.

And I explicitly mentioned officers because that's what the rebels admitted, that there are a few thousand Russian officers fighting with them. I think this is an indication that there are regular Russian units fighting there. Of course, Russia has not "invaded" Ukraine in the traditional sense, there is no total war going on, which as you say would be very short lived. But the situation is nonetheless very grave, which is why even spineless European countries are taking a relatively firm stand this time.
 
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