Von Münchhausen IV

[Optional]

I've had a better look...

Why is Wu sending her cargo ship from Nanjing to Salvador instead of São Paulo? She's chosen the furthest and least profitable destination. If the idea of our markets is to make our cities more attractive destinations for AI cargo ships, then these type of AI choices thwart those efforts.

2 trade routes end and need to be reassigned in my turnset. There's the food route from Salvador to Rio. Can go on for me. Rio still has place for more citizens, better than São Paulo or Salvador, and Rio's got the National College, meaning that an extra citizen in Rio does more for science than an extra citizen elsewhere.
The other is the São Paulo to Beijing trade route, does 13 gold and 2 science. Can go on for me as well. Without it we'll be running negative gpt, which is strange with such a small military.

São Paulo is building a market at the moment. I would have opted for a cargo ship before the market, as that would give 12 gold and 2 science from a trade route between Salvador and Beijing, way more than what a market gives. But the market is nearly finished, so I'll just start the cargo ship after.
Rio is also building a market, I could start a garden after on the advice of avl8. An Artists' Guild is also an option, it leads to about the same increase in quantity of GP generation, different great persons of course, but the garden is a bit cheaper.
A circus is also an option. Our happiness threshold is not inexhaustable. If the silk comes back in 6 turns I like to keep it, that'll make it easier to postpone the circus. The patch should be lurking around the corner, the effect of that on our happiness is in the back of my mind. Several lux for lux deals are ending, obviously I'll renew them whenever possible.

If Greece is a concern, I think also for them we're a bit far away, like for China. From Mycenae to Salvador is about 6 turns travel, CS's inbetween. But I would like a unit there, at the height of those CS's, so we see it when there's any suspicious troop movement. At the moment Alex starts to move units towards those CS's we'll know what time it is. Alex is not Genghis Khan, if he moves north it's us he's after, not the CS's. Then our best defense would be to ally one of those CS's and upgrade a unit or 2 if there's still money left.
We can pay for a war between Alex and Suleiman but I'm afraid this will just be a war on paper. Units in each others' sight will start fighting, but my experience is the AI will not mobilize its troops in a war that wasn't its own initiative and the opponent isn't an easy target. The AI can be annoyingly passive in those bribed wars, and then we would have just lost money and gained nothing. Money is still valuable for us, it would be different if it was a spare resource we could bribe with.

For our VC I don't think we're in such a great position, although if Deau finds our beaker output a bit low due to a bad start, maybe it's consolation to know in Von Münchhausen III the start was even worse, not only bad terrain but also terrible ruins. Our ruins here were actually good, a few extra citizens and the plantations tech.
In Von Münchhausen III we weren't even making half the beakers we're making here(!!!), and we still went on to easily win the game. Much easier VC, though; Diplomatic, and an AI who didn't do much to stop us.
We had a better civ as well. Being Brazil has done nothing for us sofar but put us in the middle of the jungle. But Brazil and this start was the team's choice...

 

[Deau]

I think we need to keep any trade route towards Rio. It's already way behind on pop and doesn't have many farmable tiles since we need to keep jungles. Plus, we will have to work hills for some wonders shortly so if we overlook those internal trade routes we will both miss wonders and have awful late game science from lack of growth. Keep in mind that BWC will soon greatly help our economy so that cargo should definitely go to Salvador. I'd only send one to China if we were still waiting on a DoF from her but as she was kind enough to send a TR our way boosting our relationship all on her own and then DoF, I'd rather leverage start through internal trade routes than get some gold yield. At this point in the game, the trade route BPT is getting too low anyway.

Our next cargo has to be food to Salvador. We won't get anywhere with 2 partly crippled cities (rio+sao) from poor food locations.

As for war bribe. I can't fully explain the AI behavior in terms of implementation but from experience, whenever wars occur, the defender always shifts his play until the end of the war. Even if no troops ever come, they tend to sit in their territory and try for warmongering SPs/Wonders.

i.e. if we bribe alex against Suleiman, if there is no connection due to distance, then it will only delay Alex from coming on us ever so slightly. On the other hand, if we bribe Suleiman against Alex, even if Suleiman moves no troop, it will still keep Alex "on his toes" for at least up until peace is made. Which typically takes even longer when no fighting actually occurs.

This defender implementation is the reason why it is so easy to steal many, many workers from AIs on deity. AI moves its units inside cities to defend their cities rather than defend their workers.

Salvador's growth issue is kinda why I was tempted to rush-buy a cargo ship rather than wait to rush-buy uni there. The option is still available but I didn't want to take that decision on T128 without a talk. It may be worthwhile if we ought to save 250g for a RA renewal shortly.

 

[Optional]

As for war bribe. I can't fully explain the AI behavior in terms of implementation but from experience, whenever wars occur, the defender always shifts his play until the end of the war. Even if no troops ever come, they tend to sit in their territory and try for warmongering SPs/Wonders.

i.e. if we bribe alex against Suleiman, if there is no connection due to distance, then it will only delay Alex from coming on us ever so slightly. On the other hand, if we bribe Suleiman against Alex, even if Suleiman moves no troop, it will still keep Alex "on his toes" for at least up until peace is made. Which typically takes even longer when no fighting actually occurs.

Yes, that I believe in. Declare war on an AI and they behave like an ostrich, even when they have superior troops. I think even we could declare war on Alex and he would just dig war bunkers. Obviously that's not what we're going to do, but maybe after the game someone could pick up this save and do that test.

In my last post I forgot I had made some notes about our spy in Vienna as well, so here goes my view on that:
Austria was probably not the best spot to put our spy, I agree with avl8 on that. We are 5th in science, the Maya 8th (last) and I'm thinking Austria an Russia are 6th and 7th, in whichever order. I'm not counting on getting high level techs from Austria.
18 turns to steal is rather average, but I don't want to move this spy now. It'll take some turns for the spy to settle in at another town, without any guarantee the time to steal will be quicker. Also I like continuance in these kind of things in an SG, as I've said a few times; not undo the work of a previous player. The spy is in Vienna and can do a job there.
Maybe Greece or France would have been better places for the spy. I would also have been reluctant to send it to China or Ottomans. I know from experience you can send a spy to Gandhi, persist if he complains, and he'll still may want to be friends with you. But Wu or Suleiman might be different.
I haven't moved the spy, but when he's done his work on the first tech it's up to the next player. Obviously when he's been successful his stealing times should shorten a bit, by 25% per promotion if I'm not mistaken.

Okay, here goes:

375AD, turn 130, inherited turn;
I'm happy with what all the citizens are doing, I'm just moving an archer from Rio south to Salvador, as Salvador will be our front when Alex attacks (which I'm not expecting, but it doesn't seem impossible).

IBT;
Austria becomes allied with Valletta, St Petersburg gets more knocks.
We Love the King day in São Paulo ends. They want wine now. Brazilians are 24hr party people, aren't they?
Err, look which town has come back on the map... Viva Rostov!!

Spoiler :

400AD, turn 131;
Rio will grow next turn, moving a citizen off the copper to a hill-farm.

425AD, turn 132;
Machinery will come in next turn, I'm moving all workers on jungle tiles, so they can make Brazilwood camps. I've interrupted them in their activities, so leaving some marshes half cleared and farms half completed. Brazilwood camps fast-tracking.
São Paulo; market > cargo ship
The trireme is travelling west again, but I can see 4 barbarian vessels there, with probably more in the fog. There's probably at least a CS out there somewhere, but how to get there? Doesn't seem doable, Wu has some units around, but you'd need a fleet of some numbers to tackle the barbarian presence here. Not happening.

IBT;
St Petersburg falls.
We get a pike from Valletta. He farted, they say.
450AD, turn 133;
Machinery > Acoustics
All our 4 workers start on Brazilwood camps.
São Paulo is about to grow and I'm putting a citizen in the university; still available tiles are all unimproved ones.
We still have that archer in the south trying to find a way to meet that remote CS, I want to sign Open Borders with Russia to let the archer pass, but Catherine wants money for it. We're friendly with an enemy of hers, I think that's the problem. I don't want to spend money, hopefully some Greek units will go out of the way, 1upt jam is the problem, Alex has got lots of units, not Catherine, Wu and Suleiman made sure of that.
The trireme places an attack on a barb galley, I know that's kind of pointless, but it may as well do something before returning to heal.

IBT;
Wu lets her composite bow take to water and shows how to fight barb galleys... not! It survives a couple of attacks:

Spoiler :

Maria Theresa has found a cosy spot for Bregenz. Did she take advice from Deau?

Spoiler :

475AD, turn 134;
No notes for this turn, I suppose there wasn't much worth taking note of.

IBT;
Napoleon completes the Pyramids. What a nice Renaissance wonder!
Someone comes sailing towards us out of the fog, I don't think we invited this guy:

Spoiler :

500AD, turn 135;
We got a great prophet ourselves. I'm not particularly chuffed with these things. It might be somewhat expolitative, but otherwise I think it would be quite strong to keep some civilian unit in Rio, so that you don't get these religious creatures and can save your faith for engineers to rush-build those wonders that we would much rather have. But there's the prophet, I have it build a holy site, on an unimproved grassland. A citizen starts working it.
I know a town of ours is about to get converted, highly likely, and a prophet can be used to convert it back, but that can become a never-ending story. You won't win these religious wars with the AI on this level. An inquisitor would have been better.
Our trireme kills a barb trireme, for what it's worth.

IBT;
São Paulo gets converted to Buddhism. We lose 8 faith from the reef, bummer. Buddhism itself is not so bad, it enables pagodas and mosques. If our own prophet had spawned only a turn later I would probably have used the faith to buy a pagoda, but of course with this timing our faith bucket is just empty again.
520AD, turn 136;
Our research agreement with Suleiman completes, Acoustics in 2 turns now, I didn't keep track very well, but I think that's only 3 turns that got taken off.
I renew the agreement, it's still a lot of beakers, of course. The 250 gold investment means the university in Salvador that we want to buy isn't coming any closer. Our gold income per turn is improving, due to markets, we should still still get there soon, also Brazilwood camps are in the making.
I've got this screenshot showing our western coast, our trireme is on the way back, the barbarian activity is obviously too much. I've had the archer that was on the way to Salvador backtracking to do something against all these barbs, but even with that assistance it would be difficult for a single trireme to find a way through. I'm expecting barbarian galleasses soon here as well, so I don't think it'll become any easier at all.

Spoiler :

540AD, turn 137;Our archer in the south is making some progress in finding a way through Greek units to meet that elusive CS over there.

IBT;
Pacal completes the Mosque of Djenne. Pacal is playing his own game, oblivious of what's happening around him, it seems.
560AD, turn 138;
Write this turn in the book: the first turn we're actually getting something out of being Brazil; 4 Brazilwood camps complete. That's +8 gold and +8 culture, those jungle tiles look a lot better now.
Acoustics is in, otherwise there wouldn't be the culture gain, and I'm switching Rio to the Sistine Chapel. The garden is still 3 turns from completion, but I'm not confident we'll get the wonder, so I don't want to delay it. Production in Rio is rather low for a capital city.
I'll set research to Iron Working > Metal Casting, for Workshops. More production is badly needed.

580AD, turn 139;
Our globetrotting scout meets another CS, beyond France. It's Mogadishu, maritime, friendly, with furs. We Pledge to Protect.

Spoiler :

The trade route to Beijing starts another cycle. I'm not deaf to the requests for a food route to Salvador, but I'm not reading how to solve happy. With the patch we would be at -2 happy now, I consider that still repairable, but if it gets much lower I'm afraid we'll turn our back on this game once the patch comes in. That has happened before with a happiness reset due to a patch.
Actually I would have been in favour of allowing the patch in already, accepting the beta, but then Methos can't participate anymore.
Vienna is starting a castle; Maria Theresa has at least Chivalry. I don't know if that's the tech we want to steal, but we know it's there.
Chinese units are slowly returning to Chinese territory, if Wu has any plans to attack us they must be on the backburner. Catherine on the other hand is still under Chinese fire. It looks like there is not allowed to be a Rostov in this game:

Spoiler :

600AD, turn 140;
Our archer in the south is now about to meet the elusive CS, we can read which one it is:

Spoiler :

Very few cultural CS's in this game indeed, we haven't met even one. I think Panama is also maritime, but I'm not certain of this.
We have an archer in the north that can do something about the barbarian fleet there now, our own trireme can heal in Zanzibar:

Spoiler :

 

[Deau]

Had I discovered France when I put the Spy in Vienna? If so, then that is clearly my mistake. I still wouldn't dare spying on Alex. We are in far too bad a position to trigger a defensive war. I'm totally fine with moving him after the first steal. We should still steal something out of her, hopefully banking but I'm not sure she'll have it.

I'll try to look at the save tomorrow night. The new dog has really been a larger workload than expected. He's slightly too large for proper play with my first dog and I have to do constant monitoring. It's really draining .

Nice write-up. I will let go on updating my previous post with SSs for the same reason mentioned above. I may even need to skip a turn depending on how fast others play their turn.


Also, I'd like to add a point to a comment you've raised earlier about Wu sending cargo to Salvador instead of Sao. Assuming that Wu has iron in her city(which I did not validate), both cities provide right about the same yield. The 1/20 gold from oasis is too small to shift the rounding in Sao Paulo's favor.

 

[Optional]

Also, I'd like to add a point to a comment you've raised earlier about Wu sending cargo to Salvador instead of Sao. Assuming that Wu has iron in her city...

That's the thing, she doesn't. Just marble. Tradeable goods on the São Paulo line are marble, copper and iron, on the Salvador line it's just marble and copper. The iron makes São Paulo the better destination.
It's a detail, normally I don't even notice these things, but if you look at this you begin to wonder how the AI picks its trade routes. Since we're trying to make our trade routes more attractive to them, something like this sticks out.

 

[avl8]

Nice set, well played!
Ill check the save tomorrow, will post some ideas soon

 

[Deau]

I still haven't had the time to open save but noticed patch is officially out. We got rigged on consulates and we're already behind. This game is going to be brutal. We are probably going to have to dump in gold for culture CSs shall we meet any.

 

[Optional]

I need to catch a flight now, will be away for a week. I'll probably still have a look at this thread at some stage, but I won't be close to internet, so count on me having a break from this SG.

Up: Methos,

I see Methos has just played in the other SG, it can sometimes be busy playing in 2 SG's. The MAC patch has not come in yet, but probably Methos needs to take into account the incoming patch. I'm not opening the save again, but I think we were getting 9 happiness from commercial CS's that we would lose, while we were at 7 happy.
I saw during my set Suleiman had a spare Pearls, I'm not sure it's still there, but that could be considered. Citizens on farms can be made into specialists. We haven't built any colosseums as yet...

 

[Methos]

According to AspyrRyan the Mac Steam patch should be out soon, while the Mac App Store version will be a while. I own a copy of vanilla on Steam, so I may look into buying a copy of BNW on Steam too if it isn't too expensive. I'll check that tonight.

For now I can still play since it doesn't appear our save has been updated yet. I'll look at it tonight.

 

[Deau]

Eh that's actually a good timing on having a mac player. 10 extra turns we benefit from consulates. Not that our CS setup is OP - far from that - but wasting 2 SPs to a patch will be fun to work around.

I'm sorry I haven't commented much. The second dog has been taking significantly more time than expected because he has 1 bad behaviour - he plays significantly too rough with my previous one so I' pretty much have to be on top of my watch 24/7. I'll try to keep up with the read but probably will only do sparse commenting for another week. I may have to skip my turn unless I manage to snag it during a weekend.

So I guess with Optional out and Methos just being done with another SG and I being crazy busy we can probably take the next set slowly. Aka play it before mac patch if you want but don't stress over it

 

[Methos]

Friday night will be the earliest I can play it anyways. Tomorrow (Thursday) I have my Masonic Lodge, so I won't be able to play the full turn set then. If I get back early enough I'll try and play a few turns and give an update.

 

[Methos]

Since we're going to lose 9 once we update to the patch, I'm inclined to alter Rio's citizens. Right now we're at +36 and growing rather quickly. By altering only tiles I brought Sistine down from 21 turns to 15 turns, +36 to +15 , and 3 turns until growth to 7 turns. I'm not sure if its something we want to do, but it will help us curb are soon to be problem, at least temporarily.

Or we could put a couple of the citizens in the university to help speed it up. Currently it'll be 37 turns until a Great Scientist is born, so we could bump that to 6 turns.

Are we settling the GW west of Rio?

 

[Deau]

keep in mind we're also going to lose like +8 food from maritimes and that monarchy offsets cap unhappiness a lot. As much as we need Sistine badly, there might be a middle zone where we work only optimal total yield tiles.

 

[Methos]

This patch is going to suck for a while. Ill see what I can do about prepRing us for the patch without altering our goals.

BTW I've installed the Steam version of Vanilla on my Mac and I can buy BNW for $20. With any luck Aspyr releases the Steam patch soon. Do we have any other DLC I'd need? I can't recall and can't currently check.

 

[avl8]

Well, patched save will be a nice challenge to play with.

First, we have to fight with -happiness. Both Hong Kong and Zanzibar got science quests, leader has 5 techs, we r at 3, 19 turns ahead. We can win this one and we should.
Maria has Chivalry, hes building a castle - so we can steal it in 8 turns. Meanwhile we can finish Compass to get another healthy trade route with China and then get another tech or 2 before the end of these quests.
Zanzibar also lost our protection somehow. Its catholic though, means -0.5 influence lost instead of -0.75 (thanks to our missionary).
As a long term option, Rio gotta build circus after Sistine, San Paolo can boost happiness with stoneworks.
And finally, the best option at the moment is to just pay 250 to Zanzibar. With Patronage opener and Catholicism, its our strongest mercantile ally in the world.

Second, we gotta maintain good growth. San Paolo and Salvador can improve it with watermills and San Paolo can do a decent job by getting lighthouse.
2 caravans to Rio will help, as will help some investment into marytime, probably Ur with a trade route/Catholicism quests.

Third, Greek pikemen. They are close and we gotta address the situation. Alex can declare on Cathy for 18gpt, Sully can declare on Alex for 10gpt, we got a nice profit from brasilwoods. Dont know if we have to play risky and ignore Greek treat...
Btw both Alex and Sully got Aesthetics in renaissance while Napoleon is still in Medieval. They can steal our Sistine.
Id recommend bribing Sully into war with Alex to secure Sistine for ourselves.

 

[Methos]

Pre-Turn: I searched the thread in regards to any discussion regarding our Great Writer, Voltaire, but I didn't see anything. Rather then have him just stand there, I move him to Sao Paulo which has a writer slot open.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I switch Rio's citizens that were working tiles that only provided to tiles. This slows growth, but also shaves six turns off of Sistine.

IT: We meet Panama City (Maritime) during the interturn when one of their units steps out of their borders. They also have a mission of seeking . The Ottomans, Russians, and Greece are all protecting Panama City.

Trade: Our Copper for Truffles deal with Maria runs out.

Machinery, which had two turns until it completed, finished. Apparetly my mucking around with the citizens must have pushed us over the edge.

Turn 141, 620 AD: I pledge to protect Panama City. I renew the copper/truffles deal with Maria.

Salvador: Pikemen -> Colosseum. I preferred the Workshop for the bonus, but might as well prep for the hit.

Research: Metal Casting -> Chivalry I'm not sure here what our plan is, but figure Architecture is something we need to head towards anyway, so I start knocking out its prepreqs.

IT: The Ottomans ask us to dow Wu, which I say no. Greece replaces China as the ally of Ur. Maria has entered the Renaissance.

Ottomans complete Himeji Castle. Wu completes Notre Dame.

Trade: Our Copper for Salt with the Ottomans has ended.

Turn 142, 640 AD: I renew the Copper/Salt deal with the Ottomans.

IT: Catherine makes peace with Ur.

Turn 143, 660 AD: Voltaire produces a great work of art in Sao Paulo. We're now earning tourism.

IT: We lost the culture mission for Belgrade. Apparently Greece is producing more then us.

China denounces Austria.

Turn 144, 680 AD: Our new cargo ship starts a trade route with Shanghai. We get +10 , +1 and they get +6 , +1 , and +6 influence a turn. I renew the carvan : trade route with Rio.

Sao Paulo Cargo Ship -> Workshop

IT; Chivalry -> Banking

Greece impressed Ur with their culture and we lose out.

Turn 145, 700 AD: Nothing to mention.

IT: We meet the city state of Ife (religious). They're the ally of Greece. Pacal enters the Renaissance era. Zanzibar wants us to connect our capital to theirs with a road.

Turn 146, 720 AD: We find Mt. Kailash.

IT: Not sure what just happened. Greece asked to renew our copper/cotton deal, which I did and then the screen froze for a bit on the image of Alex on the horse. I hit the escape key to get out of it and I jumped to a trade deal the Ottomans were doing and he was saying the options provided were unacceptable (copper for salt). I ended up trading him copper for pearls, but will take a closer look to see what happened.

Tyre is giving us furs, which causes Rio to earn a WLTKD. Currently at 23 .

Turn 147, 740 AD: We open Aesthetics.

Odd, the save started acting funny. Not sure if it was what happened above, or because the batteries in my trackpad went out. Those deals with Alex and the Ottomans earlier weren't showing and everytime I tried to renew them they'd agree to it, but it wouldn't go through. So I saved and reloaded and now it works fine. Odd. We're actually at 27 .

IT: Austria is upset about our influence regarding Valetta and Wu is upset with us about Ur. I told them both to get over it.

Turn 148, 760 AD:

Our spy, Estevao, has been promoted to an agent. He learned that Maria is building the Forbidden Palace in Vienna and is plotting against Wu. He was also to steal a tech, but the only options were Compass, Banking (currently researching), and Physics. I almost chose Banking just to speed us up, but we'll have it researched in four turns. I decided to go with Physics due to the trebs and it was 533 when we only had about 470 left on Banking. I also move our spy to Paris.

IT: Wu offers 120 for 4 /turn. I say yes to help keep her off our back. Belgrade gives us a crossbow.

Turn 149, 780 AD Nothing to report.

IT: We have enough faith to buy a unit or building.

Sorry, my daughter came up to me asking about something so I hit accept on renewing a deal with Wu where we give her 5 /turn for 150 . I wish I hadn't done the deal prior to that now.

Wu and Nappy dow on Maria!

Spoiler :

I'm not sure if the below roster is correct.

Roster:
Optional
Methos -> Just Played
NotSure -> Up!
avl8
Deau
OmniPotent42

View attachment SG-Pedro II_0150 AD-0800.Civ5Save

 

[avl8]

I shall view the save tonight. Whos next btw?

 

[Methos]

NotSure, though I'm not sure if that's right.

 

[avl8]

You're right about roster, just check posts on page #14.
So its NotSure's turn now.

Save is interesting. Wish we can have more comments on it.

Religion.
We got 300 faith, I advise getting Mosque in San Paolo. We are short on fpt with our pantheon removed in San Paolo, so extra +1 fpt is nice. Plus we'll get golden age during next set of turns, so we wont need happiness during next 15-20 turns.
Even with consulates strategy nerf, we're loaded with happiness due to strong Zanzibar alliance.

Espionage.
We're 3rd in tech rating, thats efficiency!
Though Paris is 8th, so we wont get any tech from them till the end of game. So I strongly advice moving promoted spy to Suleiman, hes #1 at the moment. We wont cancel any decisions made since atm Estevao is just looking around Paris' surroundings.

Technology.
We are 3rd atm and heading to Architecture. Its a strong choice, though we ve got a nice alternative.
Both Hong Kong and Zanzibar got science quests with 6-8 turns left on timer. Leader has 8 techs while we have 6. So we can finish Banking and get Compass to get 8 techs. Compass is also nice for extra trade route.
Even smarter move - finish Banking, check if tech leader (Sully) has 8 or 9 techs. And if Sully is still at 8, go for Compass.

Trading.
San Paolo wants wine. Suleiman has 2 copies, we can trade silk for a wine and boost San Paolo' growth.
We got 4 horses, time to sell it for good. Salvador wants Silver, Pacal has extra copy and wants horses.

Buildings.
We're sitting on huge pile of gold. 1356+54/t.
Id recommend rush buying University in Salvador first, 660g. Then Water Mill in Salvador and San Paolo. These things are very handy, 800g.
Atm we are 6th on military scale, we can afford some bribed wars for a stronger future.

Politics.
Suleiman can declare Alex or Wu for a laughable sum of 7-8gpt. We are close to finish Sistine, maybe its time to cross Alex/Suleiman. Both can finish Sistine now, and Alex is still "friendly" while his pikes are nearby.
Or - we can bribe Alex to finish Cathrine. So he'll get closer to Sully and they will wage war till the end of game.

Things Id like to do as soon as possible.
Cargo ship to Salvador.
Cargo ship to San Paolo.
Both cities needs extra growth badly. We got huge amount of happiness, time to convert it.
Especially when we hit golden age pretty soon.

 

[Methos]

Note that we're not truly at that much excess happiness. The only reason were there is because Rio is on a WLTKD. In one turn I jumped from 6 to twenty something.