Von Münchhausen IV

[Optional]

Okay, that helps my understanding. I knew how science boosts were calculated, but hadn't realized the same mechanism was used for cultural boosts.

I felt I did need that insight before playing my set. Regretfully, weekend is over, I just worked a 13-hour shift, I'm having a dram of whisky (think of a couple more than one) and I just want to drop dead and fall asleep - or just one of those two if both is too much to ask for.
Tomorrow could be a late one as well, I'm not sure when I'll find time for my set. I assume my plan to Oxford-bulb Radio is a logical one. I think I know enough to play my set, just don't know how my week will look like - how to find time for playing my turns.

 

[Deau]

It's all good. We haven't had much feedback anyway after my set. Methos looks MIA in both his SGs and ever since team shrunk, we all seem to have been increasingly busier. So for all I know, even if we play on a more spread timeframe, I'm fine with it.

I'd rather see some good exchange over sets than urging play. At least that's my 2cent. It might be worthwhile to eventually do a reverse SG where people play their set and don't say a word about it and others only criticise/appraise the save they were left with -_-

 

[Optional]

Finally then:

1100AD, turn 170, inherited turn;
Salvador starts to make a worker.
A cargo ship from Salvador was still unassigned, it continues the trade route to Beijing.
There's a Great Artist waiting outside Rio. I'm assuming we're saving this one for a theming bonus in Sistine's.
I faith-buy a pagoda in São Paulo, although I'm not sure about the timing of gathering enough faith for Great Engineers or Musicians.

IBT;
Greece replaces Ottomans as ally of Hong Kong.
1110AD, turn 171;
Salvador has grown and I'm placing a specialist in the market.
A caravan from São Paulo needs reassigned. I'll let it bring hammers to Rio now, to aid the building of wonders - the Uffizi at the moment.

IBT;
Pacal completes Globe Theatre.
China and Austria make peace. Looking at their gold and resources, Maria paid for it.
Suleiman offers a Research Agreement. I think before he was a bit short of cash. 300 gold for both parties.
1120AD, turn 172;
With the trireme that's far out in the east I'm circumnavigating around some barb galleys. There are 3 of them, I prefer to move on.

IBT;
Austria denounces China (they've just signed peace, which came expensive for Maria Theresa).
Suleiman completes Pisa. We see a Great Artist appearing who creates a great work, I believe that's what Suleiman did with the free to choose Great Person.
1130AD, turn 173;
Panama desires horses, I decide to buy one from Suleiman, I think an extra 2 food in the capital is worth 45 gold.
The copper for salt deal with Suleiman has ended. I don't renew, instead I sell him our copper for 240 gold, and with that I buy truffles from Napoleon. Truffles is wanted by Mogadishu, this'll give us allied status and more food.
A cargo ship in São Paulo needs to be reassigned, it continues the trade route to Shanghai.

IBT;
This is bad; Suleiman completes the Uffizi!!! We missed it, still had 5 turns to go - from the spy that I later put in Istanbul we know he didn't build it in Istanbul, maybe Ankara?
Novgorod and St Petersburg (both Chinese towns) are receiving heavy knocks.
1140AD, turn 174;
The only positive from missing the Uffizi is that the fail-gold allows us to sign another Research Agreement. 250 gold with Napoleon.
Rio, failed Uffizi > Iron Works
São Paulo, East India Company > shrine

IBT;
Catherine is back on the map; Greece has liberated Novgorod!
Suleiman asks to extend friendship - okay.
1150AD, turn 175;
We learn Scientific Theory; we enter the Industrial Era and we get another spy.
Next to research: Electricity.
I move the spy to Istanbul. Suleiman is well ahead in tech.

IBT;
Russia denounces China. That won't be a surprise.
1160AD, turn 176;
São Paulo, shrine > Oxford
Oxford will take some 10 to 12 turns, depending on whether the desert stone is getting worked, Electricity is due in 10 turns, so this seems the time to start Oxford - for getting Radio as free tech. I hope we didn't need some other tech also for this, then Oxford needs to be delayed - I should have better checked this.
Salvador, worker > public school

IBT;
Wu Zetian makes peace with Alexander.
Suleiman conquers St Petersburg from China - that's a great town, with Lake Victoria and some luxes. I don't like to see him get this, Suleiman is beginning to look like a runaway.
1170AD, turn 177;
Not much going on, I'm giving a barb camp a knock with a spear - that's on a 2-tile island west of us. The barb camp is defended with a pike, so it'll take a spear a little while, and hoping the barb camp doesn't spawn galleasses.
We've become ally of Zanzibar, due to Suleiman's influence decaying quicker than ours. Zanzibar's gold means both Salvador and São Paulo We Love The King. Happiness goes from 8 to 16.

1180AD, turn 178;
We got another pike from Valletta and we renew a copper for cotton deal with Alexander.

1190AD, turn 179;
Rio produces another Writer. We don't do anything with him just yet, but I think he can be bulbed one of these turns, as I switched some citizens to Jungle Works when the Uffizi failed, and I don't think there are many more culture tiles to come on line.
Spy Franciska has now established herself in Istanbul. The town is making nearly 100 hammers per turn and doing Red Fort. That won't take long with this production.
She also learns Suleiman is plotting against Pacal. We inform him.
To steal a tech in Istanbul takes 33 turns. Ouch, that's a bit long. There's a constable in town and of course it's a newbie spy. I can understand if the next player thinks 33 turns is too long and wants to move the spy.

IBT;
Suleiman completes Red Fort (and continues with the arsenal).
1200AD, turn 180;
Rio has completed the Iron Works.
Valletta is now asking for the Porcelain Tower. We can perhaps do that, it takes 14 turns. I didn't check whether anybody was up Rationalism, but that's rarely a favourite.

We are set to lose our alliance with Mogadishu. They give us food and furs, and gold gifts are at the moment more valuable. But if we pay them we can't buy a Public School in Rio, which is probably worth more, and we are not really dependent on the happiness, we have 13 happy faces at the moment (although other civs can buy alliances away from us).

Tomorrow I'll add a few screenshots. I'm a bit erm... lazy now.

 

[dembo]

Nice write up - tough luck on Uffuzi

 

[avl8]

Its getting even more interesting now!
Nice set, well played!
id like to see screenshots, will probably post my thoughts on the save tomorrow.

 

[Optional]

Here are some screenshots.

This is a spear of ours doing a brave job against a superior barb camp:

Spoiler :

Here we see Novgorod having been liberated by Alexander, and St Petersburg has just been captured by Suleiman (1160 AD):

Spoiler :

Spy Franciska has arrived in Istanbul. The tile yields are showing Suleiman is going down the lower half of the tech tree; he has Chemistry (extra yield on mines) but not Scientific Theory (extra yield on lumber mills):

Spoiler :

On the current turn a couple of workers are working on a road to Zanzibar (quest):

Spoiler :

 

[avl8]

I think beeline to Radio is a really good move.

Our spy should move to Kathmandu to increase our faith output, wasting 30+ turns in Instanbul is not worth it.
Rio will benefit from public school rushed, probably we should build Porcelain tower there since we have some time before AIs get rationalism.
Sao Paolo have to build public school after Oxford, Salvador will build it too.
I really dont know about next policy/tenet, want to hear ideas from you, guys.
Faith wise I think we should stop buying things and save for eng-game great people.

World congress vote is coming in 2 turns, theres our Art funding option and Chinese Cultural heritage sites. I think we should vote for AF and hope cultural heritage sites wont get it. Maria got maximum votes this time, she can really help us by voting No to CHS.

Who will continue our journey btw?

 

[Deau]

T170 - Pagoda purchase. You typically only purchase buildings if you expect they will repay their own cost by the end of the game faith-wise. Only exception would be if you are extremely happiness starved and have no other way out. We'll probably net -140 ish faith from it probably slightly less. Hopefully it won't make or break one extra great person purchase (esp not a great musician). In most cases it matters little.

I'd very much like to get PT before Wu hits it (she is very inclined towards rationalism from my experience. I've seen her catch the wonder on deity with 0 apparent points in rationalism). It's potentially an extra 8 turns off of victory and adds +16-23 TPT if built in cap (yup even blank wonders are that stupid strong in cap)

Did we keep the push towards a GE from points? I had mentioned it (or maybe I just thought about it) to try to micro manage a GE from points instead of a GS so that we can catch the Louvre. We'll have to monitor for Exploration amongst the top 4 AIs. I'm hardly worried by maria/Catherine/PAcal.


I think we need to discuss ideologies. Seeing as Alex got Russia back to life (both a Yay and O crap), I'm afraid that if we don't go freedom, we risk a miserable timely failure of Alex winning Diplo a couple turns before we can win. At the same time, we have such little production and science from crippled growth that I am tempted with order to reach internet 15-25 turns earlier. I'd like some people's input. I'll probably be able to demolish arguments or at least provide strong counters to each case anyone suggests but hopefully we can come up to some consensus.I'm leaning more towards freedom but since we are 2 SPs from scholasticism, it wouldn't be nearly as profitable as if we had it - and I don't think we have enough GW left to both fill oxford and bulb scholasticism.

As for WC votes - I thought cultural heritage site is +3 culture per wonder? If so, we want it. It's late enough in the game that the large TPT gain from it even for just 5-6 wonders in cap will pay more than the culture it provides to AIs. It converts to +12-17 TPT per wonder once everything kicks in and we will still eventually need to try to enact religion (last one in the game preferably to not lose RA partners/get DoWed early). I would've rather had it on the next vote but I'm just not sure we'll have enough proposals to offer. Catherine is likely to have the least military and I thought this was what dictated who was the 2nd in line to propose beyond the host (I read this random in a thread I never validated but it made a lot of sense)

I don't think that I will be able to check the save before Friday night for turn-specific details.

 

[Optional]

I was taking things slowly partly because I hoped Methos would report back in here. He seems enthousiastic and a good guy for SG's. We are certainly unlucky this SG with the amount of people just disappearing.

I'm learning a cultural game is not the most suitable kind of game for an SG. There's a lot of micro-ing for just the long term effect, so it's more difficult to keep focus. With war games you have your next enemy and your next town to conquer, focus is easier, reports sound more interesting; it's "We captured Rome!" against "We need to postpone bulbing this Great Writer for a until a few more BrazilWoods have been online for 8 turns for the greater cultural haul."
Not that I think that that's the reason why people don't stick to it, but it's easy to see it can have an effect.

Anyway, I don't know any magic tricks to make people reappear again. Three people is somewhat short for an SG, but since we're already at turn 180 I feel it would be a waste to stop now. Do you want to take the next set, avl8?

Our spy should move to Kathmandu to increase our faith output, wasting 30+ turns in Instanbul is not worth it.

Is fine with me. I think to use it that way was mentioned before. The reason I put it in Istanbul is because CS influence can also be bought, and we're making a substantial amount of money per turn now. To buy more research is harder. And even if a spy only gets an 8-turn tech in 32 turns or so, that's still 25% quicker research. When our spy gets caught, yeah, then it would be wasted, I agree. Maybe the chance of that happening is greater now civs have more than one spy.
Your thoughts on Porcelain Tower and public schools are in line with what I was thinking, although I was somewhat undecided on perhaps balancing it with an investment in Mogadishu, where influence is cheap now and where we're on the brink of losing our alliance status - then it's more growth than happiness what I'm thinking about.
Yes, I think we should save our faith now. The pagoda I bought will still give a large amount of faith back, but the later in the game it gets, the less these buildings give back on their investment.

I would need to look at which tenets this game has, I have no idea, I'll have a look, but whatever I say won't be the words of an experienced player. Well, not on this subject, at least.

Did we keep the push towards a GE from points? I had mentioned it (or maybe I just thought about it) to try to micro manage a GE from points instead of a GS so that we can catch the Louvre.

Yes. I kept specialists in Work Shops, was sparingly with science specialists, because I definitely would want a Great Engineer before a Great Scientist (although I didn't make an exact timeline calculation with regards to any wonder).

 

[avl8]

Im fine with playing next set, the game is really interesting and enough challenging for me right now.
Id like to discuss ideologies before the set since it has great impact on the late game.

The more I follow this game the more I feel like going military will be our main counter vs Alex' diplo, Suleiman/Napoleon's CV and Wu's strive for domination. Luckily for us, Brasil provide a nice synergy for late game conquest in form of pracinhas and Golden ages which boost em even more. Plus more tourism from GA/ offensive or defensive war.
The trick is to switch before its too late.

And atm we can do it in 2-3 set of turns. Going after Wu with a Suleiman as a meat shield is looking very fun for me. Of course it will need more than guns - we need infrastructure for it like barracks. Though with our great cash flow its doable, artillery/pracinhas/bombers can switch the board completely to our favor.
What I like most of it - its the Wu being marked warmonger and Wu being in war with Suleiman, both tech and military leader. It means we can snatch a city with one attack or we can have even more if we drag him into longer warfare with Wu or Alex.

We can start doing this scenario right after Porcelain tower - or we can hope for a brighter tomorrow playing peaceful. But lets face it - we can lose more wonders to Suleiman/Alex/Maria/Pacal/Napoleon and losing finally to Alex's DV or Suleiman's CV or DV.

Back to ideology, freedom looks even better from a warfare option. Free units and natural enemy is fine for me.
What do you think, guys?

 

[Optional]

These are the next Great Persons we'll be getting, both in Rio (with the current distribution of specialists):





Great Artist in 5 turns at this rate (5 x 12 = 60, 144 + 60 puts it over the 200 mark).
We can actually let our current Great Artist make a great work, we're in Industrial Age, in 5 turns we'll still be in Industrial Age, so we can have 2 Industrial Age works of art. Sistine gives theming bonus for work of the same age and civ...

Great Engineer in 14 turns (14 x 5 = 70, 131 + 70 = over 200).
We could slow this down a bit if the engineer is for the Louvre; at the moment Archaeology looks to be 24 turns away. It'll probably be a bit quicker, but not much, there isn't a single science boost from an RA or spy to come in soon.

Going after Wu with a Suleiman as a meat shield is looking very fun for me. Of course it will need more than guns - we need infrastructure for it like barracks. Though with our great cash flow its doable, artillery/pracinhas/bombers can switch the board completely to our favor.

One problem is that the lion's share of our income is coming from Wu; 4 trade routes with a combined value of 57 gold per turn at the moment, oh oh. Only other available trade routes are with CS's and much less profitable.
And while we're in that war Suleiman will rake in even more wonders, he built 3 in my turnset alone. I'm worried about Suleiman, he's the opponent for me. I don't see a war against Wu helping us much. If we go after Wu we'll need to conquer the Ottoman lands as well. It'll require a 100% turnaround in our strat. Completely different tech route, no Archaeology but Dynamite, no wonders but guns.
Just a little war on the side won't work, if we go conquering we need to conquer big time. The cost of war is great, we would need to conquer much to compensate.

I've looked at Ideology tenets, but I have problems defining a favourite Ideology, each Ideology seems to have some really good ones and some that are not so good. Even something like Autocracy seems to have some good ones, like Futurism; 250 tourism with every nation when a great writer, musician or artist is born. I can't make up my mind between all these tenets, also because it requires fairly complex calculations to determine which ones will help most. It's not a very intuitive system.

 

[avl8]

Ok, heres my 5th set.

turn 180.

Rio starts Porcelain Tower. It celebrates a brand new public school mysteriously appears in the city. Research rate goes to 304, nice one!
Spy went to Kathmandu, both spies are on rigging religious CS now.

turn 181.
We're friends with Ife, surprisingly we havent pledged it earlier. Pledged to protect it, 91 influence more to overcome Suleiman there.
Zanzibar wants porcelain, good news! Road quest with them will get completed very soon.
Dyes for copper deal with Napoleon renewed.
Silver for 3 horses/ob/3 gpt deal with Pacal renewed. We need more happiness now!

IBT Wu came to swap open borders. We decline. Probably should sell it for gpt.

turn 182.
WC came. We voted for Art funding, China as host got 2 delegates, Maria got 3.
We got new social policy - Sovereignty. Our strengths are gold per turn value and friendly relations, we already got 2 RA @t204, next stop can be Scientific revolution. I don't know if scholasticism worth it when we cant compete with runaways on allying city states. We can afford more RA so it will be plain profit to get SR.

turn 183.
Arts funding passed, Natural heritage sites failed (phew!).
We sold ob to both Suleiman and Wu. If Wu plan to attack us we better get some cash from her before.

turn 184.
Napoleon hits #1 military. Cool!
Our troops went on the lonely island training camp. Unless someone comes there, we can get experience there.

turn 185.
Zanzibar got their road to our capital!
We got a great artist in Rio. As Optional mentioned, Sistine bonus is the key.
We r doing 8 tourism per turn, while Sully got 24 tpt, Pacal got 12 and Napoleon is at 8 too.

turn 186.
We got electricity!
And some aluminum near Salvador! And some more close to Sao Paolo. The city will get it in 1 turn
Industrialization is next big thing, hope we get some coal as well.
A caravan from Salvador to Rio now brings production as someone mentioned earlier. Food is an issue there though if we lose more wonders to others it might be the ghost story about Brazil.

turn 187.
Catherine is back with 8gpt. Swapped embassies, sold her ob for 1gpt. Ok, old new market partner is back
Oxford is up and running! We need 2 great work of writing from other civs and different eras. Ive swapped one with Wu, though I do not use our GW to bulb another work in case we need flat culture from him. Feel free to bulb GW into great work of writing and swap it to get Oxford bonus.
I think its worth it since next artist will come out in 20 turns, next great writing - in 26 turns. But if we need a crucial social policy - we better bulb GW for culture.
Modern era/Radio is up, Sully is still in industrial, others in Renaissance.
Our new spy, Pascoal went to Vatican. We are no longer friends so some rigging is worth doing there.

turn 188.
Alex is massing units near our borders. He also got both Hong Kong and Ur allied so it can be a huge mess if he declare us.
Plus our trade routes to China is nearby, so we are risking a huge amount of hammers/gold now.
Guys, this issue must be addressed with all caution!

One option I can provide is buying great prophet for 4+ CS quests including Ur, Hong Kong and Vatican. We can then bring back lots of fpt lost due Sao Paolo became buddhist city. Atm we got enough fpt, Ill let you make such a decision or bring another.

WC's special session has started. Alex got 8 delegates, only Maria can compete with our help. We voted for her.
Austria and Ottomans has made RA. Russia denounced Suleiman. What a fail, he just liberated her!
Wu denounced Pacal, guess he will suffer soon.

We are first to choose tenets, Freedom tenets as we need both additional 25% great people rate and more food from specialists. CS rigging is also cool though Brazil has brilliant potential with gpp rate modifiers that can provide large profits.
Speaking of which, its now 10 turns before great engineer!

turn 189.
Alex got WC host. Maria and Alex both got 8 votes, dont know why not Maria...
Chinese spy has stolen Acoustics, we let it slide this time for diplomatic bonus.

Roster:
Optional
Methos
NotSure
avl8 -> Just Played
Deau -> Up!
OmniPotent42

Save

 

[Optional]

Well played! From what I can see on the map I'm not convinced Alex will come for us soon, but he's obviously got many units. I'd like to keep some money spare for any emergencies.
It's a pain our faith is so low. Trying to get more influence with religious CS's is indeed a good idea.

 

[Deau]

Hi guys, I struggle to catch up enough time to play my set. I'll at least try to comment on Avl's post tonight or tomorrow to leave time for comments before my set.

In the mean time and we don't have to make a decision on that before my set but if we hear from Methos soon, I suggest we move to 15 turns sets. Otherwise, if we are to play only 3 of us, we could consider 20 turns sets until 320 and then scale it back down for the last stretch so that everyone experiences the micromanagement of late game GMs.

I don't think I'll be able to play the set before Saturday to be completely honest. I've already cancelled my hockey tomorrow night as I'm completely burnt from busy schedule.


Only comment I'll add right away since I thought of that reading Avl's on bathroom break on my cell (yeah I know it's gross, my apologies), is that I'm disappointed that +3 culture per wonder did not get enacted.

As I had stated in my previous reply, you want it to come in at some point in the game just not too early as each wonder turn into at best 6 CPT but at best 18 TPT for the human. The best timing is at the 3rd or 4rth WC, not the second but I don't know if we'll have enough proposal to get that as well as religion if we ever lose proposal priviledges to super weak Russia.

 

[Optional]

It would be great if someone could manage a 15-turn set. 10 turns is based upon having 5 or 6 players. In general people find it more difficult to play long sets later in the game, but it's not too bad as long as there's no war. War = lots of unit management, so then turns are longer (I'm not expecting war straight away, just keeping in mind the possibility).

I don't think we need a rule, or maybe something like "do 15 turns if you can, but 10 is okay"?

 

[Deau]

Hi guys,

I'm sorry, I haven't been able to play my set over the weekend and it's looking bad for the next 7 days as well. I'm not sure what to propose from here but I really doubt I'll be able to play before the 11th or 12th of December.

I'll keep up with the replies at least once a day. If you chose to skip my turn I'm fine by that but since were down to 3 players, I figured that was not exactly ideal. Besides that, I'll have a few days off during holidays which I can probably play a set or two.

 

[avl8]

I think 15-25 turns is a good idea since we lost people and none of us eager to turn this situation around. Whats on your mind, Optional?

 

[Deau]

Hi guys,

Even though I haven't really been active in civ5 for 1 1/2 months, I'm hoping and planning around my 5 days off to get my set - a 20 turns set - done and posted. Please at least reply if there is still some interest in wrapping this up as if not, il spare myself extra time outdoors w/ dogs instead

Cheers and happy holidays regardless that we chose to finish this up or not

 

[avl8]

Sure, go for it!
Marry Christmas, guys!

 

[cairnsy44]

Dang...the game died. I was really hoping to see if they could pull it off!