Von Münchhausen IV

[Deau]

Sorry for inactivity. I'll try to look at the save after Vet appointment tonight but it will likely have to go to tomorrow night. If there's an urge to play you are welcome to do so w/o my output.

*edit*
Ok sorry again, put me on the injury list for a week, maybe 2. This new dog is like I'm running 2 full time jobs, I've missed my hockey league the last 3 weeks. I'll keep on reading the thread but post very little as I have been lately. I think my turns comes in after 2 more players - I'll alert if I can/can't make it once I'm up but odds are against it.

Thanks and keep up the good work!

 

[Optional]

I'm here again, KLM brought me back. Weird, every time I go back to the Netherlands something burns down to the ground. I was born in the same town as Mata Hari, that's a name people may know, her house of birth has been destroyed with other buildings. The previous time I was back it was a factory that burnt down. Maybe I shouldn't travel back anymore...

I see Methos has played, well done, good job on renewing the lux for lux deals, although in hindsight not as crucial as it looked before:

Turn 146, 720 AD: We find Mt Kailash.

This is the real reason for the happiness boost. Lots of CS's - Belgrade, Zanzibar, Tyre and Vatican City - were asking for a wonder. We gained quite some CS alliances when we found Mt Kailash. WLTK king day gives a growth boost, not happiness.
Of course we couldn't know in advance we would find this wonder, but this changed the happiness picture completely.

Some CS happiness we will likely lose again soon, but a lot of it we can hopefully keep. Probably Tyre's Porcelain and Furs we will lose, but Vatican City's Gold we won't miss because Zanzibar has also Gold, and there are a few quests available that we can immediately fulfill:
Hong Kong asks for Dyes - Napoleon has spare; we can swap our last Copper for Dyes and make Hong Kong happy.
Belgrade asks for Wine - Suleiman has spare; we can get it in exchange for Silk. We will likely not be allied with Belgrade after this, because Alex has a big influence there, but I think we should still do it - we should have done it before, we've simply been sleeping.

I'm not a big fan of paying Alexander or Suleiman money. They can invest it in CS's, get them on their side instead of ours, which will weaken us. Also I agree with Deau that Alex can become defensive if he's being declared on, and start building troops and defensive wonders. Then it'll be tougher fighting him, and we will likely need to fight him at some stage since he's making so much more culture than us.

A university can now be bought in Salvador, this'll enable Oxford in Rio.
We could use another worker, already in my set a shortage of workers was noticable, and it hasn't gotten any better.

Pre-Turn: I searched the thread in regards to any discussion regarding our Great Writer, Voltaire, but I didn't see anything.

It had to do with this:

T125 First GW just spawned. I am putting him to sleep until we get a second one for oxford bonus. We may also need to bulb him for science but without any culture CS discovered yet, bulb is moot. So anyway, please don't produce great work yet. 30 turns of 2 TPT isn't worth 100+ turns of theming bonus.

I think for the Oxford theming bonus we need two great works of the same period, so that's why the wait was. If we get two works of different periods we should look out for an opportunity to make a swap - I don't know how big that chance is, I think still reasonable (I haven't waited with Great Artists like this in my own games, I just use them immediately and hope I can get combinations by swapping).

I think indeed we should purchase the mosque in São Paulo, rather a mosque than a pagoda, as faith is worth more to us now than happiness, although both are okay.
If we can get cash for our horses instead of a lux I would prefer the hard cash. With the last patch trading for gpt has become better, although I haven't checked every AI for what they're willing to pay.
Agree with a bit more focus on growth again for now.
Remember that Rio has a half-built garden that could be finished at some stage.

NotSure hasn't been around for ages, I'm afraid there's no point in waiting for him to do a set. He's certainly welcome to do a set, like OmniPotent, but the both of them don't look to be in this SG anymore.
Anybody is still welcome to join, also lurkers we don't know the name of, but it looks like for now it's avl8 who's up.

 

[Deau]

I should actually correct the Oxford thing - its GT that requires same civ/era. Oxford bonus is a simple trade bonus. Still thought, from experience, there is a potential larger gain in bulbing culture for renaissance/ideology SP but we need to wait at least 8 turns after a few BWC go up to bulb them. 2 tpt for even 100 turns is at best marginal for CV so there is really no hurry in using it.


As a proof of GW bulb potential -> I did a T249 OCC CV as incas (deity) last week for some OCC thread and settled 0 great works of writing. I bulbed all 5.

 

[Optional]

I should actually correct the Oxford thing - its GT that requires same civ/era. Oxford bonus is a simple trade bonus.

Yes, that's it, although I needed to look up what you meant here - GT is Globe Theatre and for Oxford the writings should be of different eras and from civs other than Oxford's owner. So we could actually have given Voltaire a pen immediately.
Yeah, possibly some Social Policies give so much culture a great person could be bulbed for them, I never really thought about that, we could look at that when the next one comes around - the first one has been used.

 

[avl8]

Ok, heres my 4th set.

turn 150.
Tech leading AIs often park his spy in the capital, leaving 2th city undefended.
So our spy goes to Ankara, Suleiman 15 pop city.

We'll get banking in 2 turns, some citizen in Rio went for 4 food tiles instead of working jungles. Next citizen in 5 turns instead of 7 turns. Full growth mode is unlocked!

San Paolo got a brand new mosque, 26 fpt is still low after the city went Buddhism and we got no fpt from TGBR. Alex is kinda religion terrorist in this game!
Their lonely citizen on fishes (still 2food tile, no lighthouse really sucks) went on brazilwood from Salvador. More stuff for San Paolo, our carry!

Salvador got a brand new university, this is really cool with all these jungle tiles around being brazilwoods! Its growth is kinda low for a heavy jungle city, so they also got a brand new watermill!

Napoleon brought us some dyes for Hong Kong, copper is out as Optional advised. Suleiman brought us some wine for San Paolo and Belgrade, silk is out.
Pacal brought us some silver for Salvador, horses and 2 gpt is out.
Next turn all our cities will praise the wise king!
Happiness went to 31, golden age is near, 3 turns left.

Looking how Cathrine is bad at the moment, we came to ease her pain by offering a nice brazilian open borders for 1gpt. We need russian gold and shes already badly lost this game.
Our heroic spearman left Rio to patrol lands west of the capital, warrior will take his place in a turn. Crossbow will garnison in San Paolo, +1gpt incoming due to Oligarchy.

turn 151.
Nappy went Renaissance, Wu came to renew open borders treaty, Ive accepted this since her guys went away.
Alex is still ally of Belgrade, and I expect a spy war there pretty soon. Immortal AI pre-patch sent their spies to ensure military CS is on their side, time to check how they behave post-patch.
Patch got on us finally - we lost 6 friends at once: Ur, Valetta, Riga, Ormus, Kathmandu, Vancouver. Rio lost like 8 fpt, thats bad news.
Good news - we got Hong Kong as a new ally, 35 happiness even with a mercantile friend lost. Plus both Salvador and San Paolo got WTLKD.

Both cities went full growth mode, very handy 2 turns before GA. Rio's growth is severely crippled, 11 turns till 20th citizen. I doubt we will have Rio very large, its time to stagnate and profit until Sistine is done.
I also notice that Deals UI has been upgraded: now it shows when the deal will end. So we'll get RA next turn - time to get Compass for another trade route and Hong Kong/Zanzibar quests.
We should have more scientists working if we signed RAs

turn 152.
Maria came to renew 2gpt/open borders. Our scout is far far away, no renewal now, Maria! We got banking and compass, Wu have started a World Congress party!
Now we are 2nd on tech scale, good news!
With 2 trade routes available its time to get some cargo ships bringing food!
So I sold borders to Sully for 50g and borrowed 25g for 1gpt from Wu. Shes our biggest creditor, and its great since shes #1 military too
Btw post patch shes still renewing 30g per 1gpt deals, as Methos mentioned. Thats good news!
So we got cargo ship in San Paolo. Its SaO Paulo on my PC, did I go blind or its a bug?
Checked wiki, its weird how we, russians, transcript and pronounce this city's name

Anyway, Wu asked us for a WC proposal. Two choices are good enough imho - worlds fair and arts funding. Worlds fair is fun and means LOTS of culture for the winner - and arts funding is great for every civ, decent for Brazil. Plus arts funding makes our friends happy, we desperately need Wu/Sully happy with us.
Still, we have to build much during next 60 turns and we wont get factories up in 30 turns for sure.
Also we have a nice 3rd option : Natural heritage sites - +5 culture from natural wonders (TEN culture for us from TGBR!) - but noone will get excited about us if we propose it. Plus we cant get it now without investing into diplomacy - and with the only spy we got, its kinda tricky/unreliable.

So Ive proposed arts funding.
Its up for everyone now to form our WC strategy.
Should we invest more to play the host?
Is it worth it for our CV?

turn 153.
Maria and Wu came to say thanks for Arts funding. We gave them flowers.
Carnival have started! Good news! +20% culture, double tourism, extra gold and production!
We pop a great writer in Rio. He got parked on the same hill as his predecessor.
We bought OB from Pacal to continue trireme scouting, its there somewhere 2 CS are hiding!
San Paolo > Salvador food cargo ship started!
We can complete the quest for Hong Kong/Zanzibar if we switch Architecture for Steel. But we are at 38 happiness now, got 87 gpt so we continue to get Architecture ASAP.
Copper resold to Wu, we need 2nd cargo as soon as possible.

turn 154.
We got Sistine!
Napoleon came to thank us, our spy told that Suleiman is plotting against him. We shared the intrigue, probably he send a DoF proposal soon.
Our scout near Salzburg has met a musketeer party going to get the city.
"We wont need Maria's open borders to pass by" - he thought
Rio will finish garden, citizen rearranged, 2 scientists planted. Next RA will get finished on turn 166, we need to plant a GS before to ensure we got maximum beakers out of it.

turn 155.
Nappy came and asked if we want to be friends. We add him on friend list.
Suleiman came then to thank us for arts funding proposal. Ok!
Alex denounced China. Why? Because Wu got Bregens from Maria! Innsbruck is next I guess.
We re-sold iron to Suleiman and got another cargo in Salvador. Btw Alex send a caravan to Salvador, thats a good news definitely.
Rio started an Artist guild. After some recent micro, Rio pops a 20th citizen in 5 turns, even with 4 specialists planted. 2 caravans really worth it!

turn 156.
Maria lost Salzburg to Nappy. He came and asked our OB for 1gpt. We said no to culture victory contenders who is currently warmongering!
Alex send a galleas along the western coast. He will probably clear barbarian camp with it, so Ive send a spearman and archer to get it ourselves.
I expect him to settle some spots west of Rio. Maybe we should settle it ourselves, really don't know.
Salvador > San Paolo cargo ship have started to operate.

turn 157
Both Pacal and Suleiman denounced China. Really good news!
I think we shouldnt renew DoF with Wu now, hes marked warmonger, denounced by the half of the world.
DoF renewal can be canceled in 6 turns, means next set.

We got a Great scientist in Rio, Valetta noticed it, though its still the ally of Maria. Scientist will get settled east of Rio.
We finished colliseum in Salvador, city is lacking production. New project is workshop.
Novgorod is gonna fall to China soon, theres nothing we can do about it, nor can we sell something to poor Cathy.
Maria got Salzburg back, the city is in bad shape.

Our spy reported that Sully got constebles in Ankara.
We are #3 on tech scale, Wu is the second probably. The spy is heading to Beijing now, really worth to steal from or uncover her next target. Especially if its our country, when we got so many cargos running near her lands.

turn 158.
Catherine entered Renaissance, too bad shes almost dead.
GS have been planted east of Rio, the tile is worked immediately.
San Paolo finished workshop, it has more growth potential right now. Next project is watermill, lighthouse bought for TGBR/fishes. TGBR tiles are not considered an ocean tiles, which is bad news for me, still more growth in San Paolo is worth investing. We probably need a musician guild in San Paolo since Rio is already swarmed by specialists.

turn 159.
Catherine is dead. We send a flowers to Novgorod. Maybe Suleiman ressurect her, dont know...
Meanwhile Suleiman got both Zanzibar and Hong Kong from us, we are at 20 happiness though.
In Zanzibar hes 7 influence above us, probably we need to pay 250 to get it back.
Caravan from Salvador re-sent to Rio.
We got a free knight, promoted to rough terrain expertise.

IBT
Alex came and told us he hates Wu. Asked for a war with Wu. We told that we are peaceful nation. He told that this is a shame. That Alex!

We got Architecture.

We can start Uffizu or Taj Mahal in Rio. Atm Rio is working on workshop, though its fine that we change current project to another.
What should we build first?
What to research next?
What we should save our faith for?
New social policy - next turn. Should we open Rationalism or get a Fine arts or Cultural centers from Aesthetics?
What to do with World Congress? With Wu and Alex? With runaway Sully?

Much to discuss right now

Roster:
Optional
Methos
NotSure
avl8 -> Just Played
Deau -> Up!
OmniPotent42

Save

 

[Deau]

Sorry for inactivity. I'll try to look at the save after Vet appointment tonight but it will likely have to go to tomorrow night. If there's an urge to play you are welcome to do so w/o my output.

*edit*
Ok sorry again, put me on the injury list for a week, maybe 2. This new dog is like I'm running 2 full time jobs, I've missed my hockey league the last 3 weeks. I'll keep on reading the thread but post very little as I have been lately. I think my turns comes in after 2 more players - I'll alert if I can/can't make it once I'm up but odds are against it.

Thanks and keep up the good work!

I read AVL's post. Few things alarming but since I haven't kept up very well the previous set, I'll wait to open save for full comments.

I don't think I can play my set before next Monday. I will finally have a break as I get the 2 dogs dogsat from sunday night through Wednesday night for a conference I wish to attend on Tuesday. If next Monday is too late for you, I can skip or maybe swap turn. I'll let that out for discussion.


Reading AVL's post, I'll state one thing outright and if I don't play next set I hope others will get to read that:


DO NOT BUILD MUSICIAN GUILD UNTIL NVC/10 turns or so before internet. We don't have nearly enough faith to rely on that alone and will probably need to spend 1k-2.5k on GEs as we have neither the growth nor the hammers to build all the wonders. So we will need GPP earned GMs after internet to catch to the runaway(s).


As for wonders:

Uffizi >>> PT >> Taj Mahal (for that tech tier). I suspect China went rationalism so I'm not sure we will manage to steal PT which is extremely potent for CV.

SP. I have yet to spend more than 2 pts into aesthethics before getting explo/near full rationalism/at least 6 ideology in any CV yet and even then, on smaller empires where I typically rush-buy amphitheater/OH/museums after archaeology, I try not to put anymore than 1pt. The reason behind this is very simple: Science compounds double in CV compared to, say, SV. I know it sounds dumb, but not only are you getting earlier turn to any large TPT increase (read NVC/internet primarily), you are also significantly reducing total culture enemy civs have produced by the time you are actually competing on tourism.

In short, we need minimally secularism ASAP. Free thoughts is slightly more questionable since we will have 0 TP from BWC but at the same time, we have 0 observatory reducing the relative impact of +17% unis so it will mostly be about how many SPs we can manage.


As for WC - we don't have a competitive enough empire for the world projects so we should look into +3 culture per wonder/historical landmark/world religion/ideology. As a drawback, we kinda want to delay each of these as late as possible not to generate culture runaways (mainly from +3 culture from wonders) nor not to blow our relationships and get stuck into defensive wars.

Minimally, we will want to get world religion only after the archaeologist rush since that's a huge diplo hit. We will also want to try as much as possible to keep control of the WC so that we at least get to pick one resolution each drive. If we are lucky, we can oxford radio shortly before a WC and enact freedom (or order if we chose so, the debate will have to happen later on that).

+3 culture will definitely need to happen for capital NVC making it worth around +15 TPT (assuming religion enacted but disregarding freedom bonus) PER wonder. However, if we enact it too early, were giving a few thousand extra culture to enemy ai runaways as they're pretty much always the wonder spammers.

Nonetheless, retaining control of the WC will be key. +5 culture per nat wonder is definitely worth considering if we have no landmark within our 3 tile borders.


I'll have to open the save before discussing religion strategy.

 

[avl8]

I feel like Im in ghost town... Anybody here , alive?

 

[Deau]

Yeah I waited for further replies to add some of my own. The thread has been somewhat quiet for a bit. There's only like what, 4 of us left? I haven't been nearly as active as I should the last 3 weeks either due to the new dog.

Anyway, what I said above still holds, I'll be awaiting comments before tomorrow night when I will play my set. If no further discussion is done, I will follow my guts and review the last 2 pages to make sure I don't break anything on the way.

There's one thing I am not flexible on however. We must not do GM guild until the late game. We don't have enough faith yield to get away without guild GMs for concert tours.

 

[Optional]

Sorry for the late reply. The saves are getting bigger, I just postponed.
Very good set avl8! We're getting in a better shape.

In 6 turns a Research Agreement completes, remember to line up a tech.
A new Social Policy needs to be chosen next turn. In my own games I take the 50% happiness into culture policy at this stage, I don't know if it's best.
Are we teching towards Archaeology now?
If Alex starts to do something about those barbs west of us with his Galleasses then we can explore in that direction as well, I have a feeling there could be a CS there, although that's a detail.
I would also pick Uffizi before Taj Mahal. It's a shame we still haven't got a Workshop in Rio, I probably would have spent money on that rather than a Water Mill in Salvador. Lots of buildings we still haven't got in Rio due to low production - Circus, Oxford, East India Company...
With the World Congress I normally try not to step on any toes. Obviously I wouldn't pick World Fair here, our production is so low, but Arts Funding is normally popular.
I fully agree on postponing the Music Guild.

 

[Deau]

So hrm I opened the save and will be going with the following despite not overly putting it up for debate.


Swap the 2 scientist slots in Rio for 2 GW slots for at least 3 turns...
Bulb the existing GW after the Carnival to try to push secularism. Upon Secularism, we should have 8 specialists running and about 240 BPT to help us at least catch if not pass Suleiman eventually.

I have set tech towards scientific theory. We are isolated on a corner of land, are running only 3 cities and are already in 2nd position for tech (although Suleiman has quite a lead). I think we can delay archaeology some for earlier turn-to-internet. Our big issue right now is getting enough hammers to get wonders out and this will partly come through getting more rush-bought infrastructure in cap. My first target purchase is Rio Workshop and odds are I will loan some gold to get it a few turns earlier (even though the rate is no longer 1:1 now with the patch).


Alex can be bribed against wu for 8-9 GPT so this will happen on T160. Suleiman is asking for 15-16 gpt to DoW Alex but as he's not an immediate threat, I will wait a few turns and see if the price went down. Odds are if Alex loses just a few units to China or catches that last Russian city that he will be a significantly cheaper bribe.

The goal is just to keep them busy, slow their tech pace and particularly, slow their wonder pace. Sadly, the aggressor is not slowed much and Suleiman is both top science and top military which doesn't secure wonders much.

I'll see how it goes from there.

O yeah, target builds:

After Water Mill in Sao -> East India Company. It's our main trade hub and we need high gold to rush-buy infrastructure in Rio if we ever want to make the wonder cut. We still need PT which we will likely have China as competitor as well as really anything else we can catch on the way to RLabs including CR.


We might need to convert food routes to hammer routes the next set. Anyway onwards to playing the set I'll write an update of what's happening.

 

[Deau]

Alright, I will follow the latest trend and force people to open the save to see what happened . I didn't take much SSs anyway since I didn't discover anything.

Here's the write-up

T160 Moved cap tiles from 3H hill to 2f2h horse and another from 2f4g silk to 4f farm. 2 food >>> 5 gold in cap. I also shifted the 2 scientist slots back to writters' slots for the remainder of carnival (and probably afterwards). I plan to bulb our existing great writer at the end of the carnival to try to push into Secularism.

I bribed Alex against Wu for 9gpt as they are slowly both becoming threats.

T161 Wu is 7 turns from Pisa - I cried inside. Set a workshop Specialist in Sao Paulo after growth.
T162 Maria asks for DoF. I accepted as we are to lose China's DoF next turn and I didn't plan to renew the DoF. She is hated from too many AIs for wiping out Russia. We will need to keep her busy at war at all times from this point on, bribing Suleiman/alex when we can and her directly (against maria/maya if need be) at other times.

T163. Gifted Scout to Napoleon. I hesitated but it would've cost another 200-300g of upkeep+OB with maria to get to uncover a few tiles and our archer scout between alex and Suleiman is headed this way hugging the south coast.

Sao begins working East India Company. I'm really hoping for a trade hub even with some Pacal ships shortly hopefully. I believe we need to get a bank there afterwards. We don't have the hammers not to need very very high gold yield to rush-buy infrastructure to survive.

I set a GS in Salvador instead of the 1f ocean auto worked. I should've catched that growth ahead, I could've at least preworked the 1f tile to not get it wasted. I failed (and not only on that, see spy later).

I noticed only 1 turn left on culture quest (ormus) so I used the GW to push to 1st place. This lead to 3 turns shy of secularism. horray. It will only provide 2 food to cap though as Alex is too high.

Can't steal from China - I will move the spy to a CS instead of Suleiman. We lost all CS allies and happiness is sinking and we can't quite spare 100 hammers for colosseums.

T163 or 164 (forgot to list) I did not ask China to renew DoF. We are 2 turns away from winning Vatican faith quest. Fingers crossed.

T165 Trade with Maria ended. She didn't have the lux to renew (I think she lost a city to France). I sold her copper for 173g+2gpt to rush-buy a workshop (she didn't have anymore gold to negotiate a few pennies more). Shifted a 3h tile for the engineer specialist. We will need some GEs from points to eventually make it through the wonder rush. We have nowhere near enough hammers in any city to get anything worthwhile otherwise. 25 turn wonders in capital is horrendeous for CV. It's a blessing we're playing as Pedro.

Also shifted copper tile to a 1f tile in Salvador to cut turn to grow by 1 turn. Will reallocate the grown citizen to a scientist slots afterwards (until workshop is completed at which point it'll be an engineer).

Maria got Forbidden Palace . China asks DoF. I had to refuse as discussed above. Keep her at war at all times!

Looking through the turn notices before hitting next turn...OM G we lost the faith quest on last turn. I hate that you can't tell your closest runaway. I would've delayed workshop for 250g CS friendship 5 turns ago to secure first place and an extra faith CS alliance. I find it extremely tedious to stare at diplo screen in between turn to see if anyone passes you by mousing over. If you are lucky enough it can be noticed but it's really difficult. I overlooked that and am now cursing.

T166 Got secularism. We slipped to 3rd pos in tech. Scary. Bribed Suleiman against China for 21g+4gpt. It was cheap enough to justify it. Especially since he has aesthetics open and I wish not to lose Uffizi.

T167 I had forget spy in Bejing. I am finally moving it to IFE to shoot for a coup shortly.
Rio wants gem - nobody has any. It probably sprung up after uncovering the fog atop that stupid 2 tile island west of cap grrr. Whoever plays next set will have to pay attention to opportunities to trade for Gems. Anything that slows cap growth is really hurting.

T168 Bought OB from Suleiman to try to find a damn remaining wonder for CS quest for the Archer scout

T169 Suleiman gets Taj Mahal. He has enough cities to have split worked on Uffizi at the same time and 11 turns left are still a lot...hopefully we are clear and/or bribed war will keep him busy enough.

T170. I played a few things but left some others. I picked up bank as next building for Salvador but it's up for debate. I'm torn with the windmill since we really won't have the gold to rush-buy a windmill in all cities and also because I really want to get 1-2 GEs from points before the cost of GEMS goes beyond 400 points.

I also left the trade route that ended on that turn open in Sao Paulo. It was with Bejing so it was like 14gpt yield but we could consider sending it to Ur for quest and using next available ship for Bejing. I am torn. I want growth in cap but it won't get us an ally or well, not for long so I think more gold will help us more.

I also hesitated on rush-buying a pagoda before industrial. I don't see us win pre T300 at this pace so it will pay itself up but I was hoping Alex would convert Salvador to buy a mosque instead. That is up for debate.

However, I also am putting something up for debate.

My plan science wise at this point was to go ST -> electricity -> Oxford radio. However, it feels like we have a good enough mix of tiles to get coal and that industrialization could get us to 2 free tenets faster (and they are extremely powerful for CV - I'll give up 2-3 artifacts anyday for earlier/free-er tenets).

So anyway even though there are 6 turns into ST as I hate the RNG factor of industrialization (and because we'd need to pile up about 2100g to rush-buy 2 of the factories), it also feels like it would provide a much needed hammer help as well as an easy way to micromanage getting 2 GEs.


That's my set.
Here's a T170 spoiler SS as I found that to be missing in previous write-ups whenever I would struggle to get enough time to spare to open the save and provide more detailed comments

Spoiler :

 

[Optional]

Save is still missing... Well done, it must be me next, I should be able to find time quite soon as work is a bit slow now, will probably stay slow for the rest of the year.

12878836]My plan science wise at this point was to go ST -> electricity -> Oxford radio. However, it feels like we have a good enough mix of tiles to get coal and that industrialization could get us to 2 free tenets faster...

Why Radio? I'm guessing for the Broadcast Towers, but isn't Archeology for the Louvre more crucial for us?

Tower of Pisa or Globe Theatre we were never likely to get with this tech route, if we want a wonder we need to beeline for the tech, we went for Sistine Chapel instead, as it was also on the scientific route. For the wonders ahead of us we also need to make similar choices, we're in a lesser position than in an average game. I've seen good AI towns do some 100 hammers per turn at this stage of the, I'm not sure if that's the case here, but we're still at a serious disadvantage.

For the trade routes I'll probably continue prioritising gold, although I can't see the save for a true food vs gold comparison at the moment. I'm guessing we're struggling with happy again if we've lost some alliances with Commercial CS's.

 

[avl8]

Nice set, Deau!

Waiting for the save too

 

[Deau]

Save is still missing... Well done, it must be me next, I should be able to find time quite soon as work is a bit slow now, will probably stay slow for the rest of the year.Why Radio? I'm guessing for the Broadcast Towers, but isn't Archeology for the Louvre more crucial for us?

Tower of Pisa or Globe Theatre we were never likely to get with this tech route, if we want a wonder we need to beeline for the tech, we went for Sistine Chapel instead, as it was also on the scientific route. For the wonders ahead of us we also need to make similar choices, we're in a lesser position than in an average game. I've seen good AI towns do some 100 hammers per turn at this stage of the, I'm not sure if that's the case here, but we're still at a serious disadvantage.

For the trade routes I'll probably continue prioritising gold, although I can't see the save for a true food vs gold comparison at the moment. I'm guessing we're struggling with happy again if we've lost some alliances with Commercial CS's.

Save missing...strike 2? or 3 maybe? Darn I'm so bad at it lol.

Radio oxford is to guarantee a 2 free tenets ideology pick and a much earlier ideology kick-in. Condition for ideology is 3 factories OR modern era.

Broadcast towers won't be built until we get the +34% tourism from BCT in freedom...IF we do (we may want to go Order instead of Freedom depending - this should be an extremely hot topic of discussion in 1-2 more sets)

Pisa is not prioritized so much by AIs and with good starts, I found myself often GEing it or hard building it. I've had games where I could even hard build it in a satellite city while cap was building another wonder with great works slots. It is extremely powerful for CV as it has many, many side effects. It's a "free" additional wonder through picking GE (there's a slight lateral science cost but still giant for CV) and it contributes to all 5 great people that we are actively pushing as opposed to the standard core 2 (GS and GW) for other VCs.

It is also extremely handy in that the giant hammer crux for CV is renaissance and it's impossible to get the most out of it without either a strong Petra start or 2-3 GEs (on high faith yield games, I often line up 1k faith by industrial to rush-buy a GE just to help with the Sistine/pisa/Uffizi/pt/louvre "big 5" push)

The "choices" you speak of is why I say we need to make sure our 200 GPP great person is an engineer. PT and Louvre are very powerful. The later game wonders of interest will be Eiffel, ideology based one and Cristo Redemptor which are all spread apart enough to be manageable hard builds with appropriate gold spending (aka rush-buy infrastructure in cap so that it can spare hammers on wonders).

So really, if we can pull Uffizi, pt and a GE on Louvre, we'll be in a good state, despite an expected very late Internet.


We are down to 4 smiles and really can't spare the hammers (or gold) for collosseums so it's a difficult decision. Ur trade route would provide a +4 happy from Gold lux hence why it may be a worthy debate. Our 2 coastal cities are growing fast (in fact Sao is outgrowing workable tiles AND specialists since the location is awful and Salvador is getting there fast). At the same time, halting growth when we can expect factories soon for 2 additional important workable "tiles" for happiness issues is a double edged blade.

anyway going to add file link to the previous post

 

[Optional]

I haven't got time to open the save just now, but are you saying that with Radio we're entering Modern Age, which would allow us to pick an ideology, while saved faith could still bag us the Louvre through rush-building with an engineer?
If that is correct, I can understand going for Radio first and only picking Archeology second, I just wouldn't like to take chances with Louvre.

With Pisa you've probably been lucky, I see the AI always going for every wonder all the time in this time frame, also Pisa.

 

[Deau]

I haven't got time to open the save just now, but are you saying that with Radio we're entering Modern Age, which would allow us to pick an ideology, while saved faith could still bag us the Louvre through rush-building with an engineer?
If that is correct, I can understand going for Radio first and only picking Archeology second, I just wouldn't like to take chances with Louvre.

With Pisa you've probably been lucky, I see the AI always going for every wonder all the time in this time frame, also Pisa.

Yes, ideology pick is the turn following the tech (which I believe is unlike factories where if the factory completes last turn as you enter a turn you get ideology right away due to city vs global yield processing - nonetheless, still kills the need for 3150g/coal RNG/6-7 turns to improve the tile)

It can be done through other techs but the Radio beeline is the one in the natural path of pretty much every VC and it's a full era jump so to speak whereas most other entry points require 3+ industrial techs before you can tech modern.


If we get Uffizi&SC, it's fine to lose the Louvre. Additionally, we are playing a Pangaea map so extremely few civs will open exploration further increasing our odds for late Louvre. I wouldn't expect any AI to finish Louvre before T225 in our setup seeing as it often goes upwards T180-T200 on deity (where I expect Uffizi to go by T140-150)

 

[avl8]

Got the save, heres my cents.

I think we are slowly going to end as a cultural warmonger with all these Wu, Sully and Napoleon running away with culture.

Suleiman is 1 reputation above us in Zanzibar, thats a unit gifted. Warrior or archer is fine now - or we can build a road there to complete the quest.
Plus, next spy can go coup us another mercantile CS, we have some around, Tyre as an example.

I think bank in Sao Paolo is pretty good addition to the trade-hub we got there.
For Rio Id suggest getting Ironworks before public school. We should switch to IW asap if we fail on Uffizi.
Probably we can save some gold for rush buying public school there while working on the wonders youve mentioned.

We'll get next policy in 13 turns, probably faster. I think rationalism right side can be promising if we aim for Radio/Internet road.

 

[Deau]

Got the save, heres my cents.

I think we are slowly going to end as a cultural warmonger with all these Wu, Sully and Napoleon running away with culture.

Suleiman is 1 reputation above us in Zanzibar, thats a unit gifted. Warrior or archer is fine now - or we can build a road there to complete the quest.
Plus, next spy can go coup us another mercantile CS, we have some around, Tyre as an example.

I think bank in Sao Paolo is pretty good addition to the trade-hub we got there.
For Rio Id suggest getting Ironworks before public school. We should switch to IW asap if we fail on Uffizi.
Probably we can save some gold for rush buying public school there while working on the wonders youve mentioned.

We'll get next policy in 13 turns, probably faster. I think rationalism right side can be promising if we aim for Radio/Internet road.

I agree with saving gold to rush-buy infrastructure in Rio. We will essentially need to rush-buy all infrastructure possible there so that we can get a few wonders in. The city is really crippled.

I don't think we will need nor we will be able to fuel an army. Keep in mind that each BWC turns into 1 TPT (2 in cap) prior to internet/enacted religion/broadcast towers. Paired with carnival bonus, I think we are safe. Our BWCs will compensate for 4-5 non-cv oriented wonders and carnival for another 200 TPT worth. So we just really need to get faith up to be able to reach some 2.5-5k by internet.

So I think if we get spies out in religious CSs and go freedom we will be "safe" despite our slow pace. Order would make it too difficult to get CS allies given we need to dump all our gold in RAs and city infrastructure (aka even order prod bonus and purchase reduction wouldn't be nearly enough to save us from buying infrastructure to spend gold on CSs instead).

I think Zanibar will flip naturally over 3-4 turns. I didn't reopen the save but I think Suleiman didn't open patronage so he decays faster than us. We should definitely get into building a route there shortly. Build roads starting from the CS as the CS now supports the gold upkeep of route within their territory unlike in vanilla (and maybe gnk?).

But anyway, we are slow paced but I'm not overly worried at our end game TPT just yet. Especially after seeing how gigantic a gap there is between total culture over difficulties. Some guy posted a SS winning CV with 126 TPT beyond T300 on emperor so even just 500 TPT should suffice for immo which is really easy to achieve. It will all be about GM timing.

 

[Optional]

We are down to 4 smiles... Ur trade route would provide a +4 happy from Gold lux...

We need 103 more influence points to surpass Alexander in Ur, so we wouldn't get near.
2 trade routes from São Paulo need to be reassigned. Since São Paulo now has a workshop we can send hammers around. We are very hammer-poor, with lots of infrastructure still missing in our towns, so this seems like a no-brainer.
I agree with letting Zanzibar flip in our direction naturally.
I like a worker before a bank, it already irked me in my previous set that we had so few workers, Zanzibar wants a trade route (Yes, we want to make this route), Rio has some 6 unimproved hills and our towns are still growing fast, so I want a worker.

Then I would personally would favour religious buildings to get the Grand Temple up. All in all that would yield a bunch of faith per turn and would make it easier to faith-buy Great Engineers for wonders. But I seem to be banging on about engineers and wonders all thread already, while everybody else only is interested in financial buildings and missionaries. I'll just start that bank in Salvador then. Although we should not buy any more religious units in my opinion, if we refrain from that we should still have gathered enough faith for purchasing an engineer at some stage, while keeping enough around for a few Great Musicians at the end of the game? If faith can be so important for us, why aren't we working towards the Grand Temple?

I'm okay with going Radio first, having read Deau's reasoning. Then I suggest building Oxford and time to have it finished when we've researched the tech before Radio, to allow us picking Radio as our free tech. Oxford is not a multiplier building, so it can just as well be built in São Paulo - the capital can than build the Ironworks. If I start having São Paulo building Oxford, it is then very important of course to abandon the build 1 turn before it finishes, and only finish it when Electricity comes in!!! Big chance of a fail there, I'm afraid... on second thought, maybe it's better that I don't start Oxford just yet, but that it gets started 12 turns before Electrticity finishes, if we're all on board with the initial plan of Oxford-bulbing Radio. I could just start a Bank in São Paulo, but then a switch half-way to Oxford would really be the most effective thing, me thinks.

What I don't understand is our policy with our cultural great persons. Are we bulbing because bulbing is simply stronger than creating a great work, and if so, why are those bulbs being postponed? Is there something in the timing I should know - we have a Great Artist, but I'm not sure what to do with it.

Our spy seems to be 'establishing surveillance' a lot. I think he's been in Austria, France, Ottoman empire, Beijing and is now in Ife. Let's not move him about so much, we're not getting the most out of him this way. I won't touch him.

I'm not sure if there's more just now...
Hopefully Methos will return, I haven't seen him in both SG's now for a while.

 

[Deau]

About bulbing

Great writers' culture bulbing works the same way as scientists bulbing so its strength is equivalent to the last 8 turn worth of culture produced by the empire. Hence, with Brazil, you kinda want to delay until at least 8 turns after having built most BWCs for maximal yield.

As for bulbing vs great works - the net yield of a non-themed great works is +4 TPT in satellite cities, +6 in cap. So really, unless you build GT, any more than 3 GW are only worth +4 TPT each. (8 tpt with internet/up to 11 tpt with world religion and Broadcast Towers).

Still, that is fairly marginal when you think that you need some 500+ tourism in end game to hope to win at higher difficulties. As a tradeoff, taking 10 turns off of internet with rationalism+secularism will produce around 250 TPT for these 10 turns - this is not even considering the 10 turns off of NVC/more easier modern era wonders/easier ideology benefits.

Also, getting those few additional SPs in the renaissance allow you to detour for exploration for the Louvre for a nice 4 arts slots which even if you don't theme, since they're in cap, will yield around 64 TPT with internet, close to 90 TPT with enacted religion/BCT.

So anyway, in rare games where there are 4 or so culture CSs on which I invest heavy gold to plow through the renaissance SP rush, I consider not bulbing but over iterations I've grown more and more into bulbing at least 2, typically 3 great writers before settling 2 for Oxford and trading for bonus. I would even waste one to open commerce to catch Big Ben and for trade route yield bonus if I have only trade routes from cap (not the case in our game due to coastal bonus). I find this to contribute more to internet timeliness and thus total tourism output than a mere non-themed writer.