Ares de Borg
Norman Knight
Aren't we all?
W-I-P: Storm Over the Pacifc
- Thread starter El Justo
- Start date
El Justo
Deity
i like to think of it as eccentric 
El Justo
Deity
while i'm adding these sea units into the folders and editor, i should probably take a minute to give an overview of the naval strategy for this 
the model of the sea units is based off the one used for AoI. it is a conglomeration of several criteria such as displacement, total guns, caliber of guns, quality of fire control, quality of shell, torp tubes, quality of the torps themselves, top speeds, damage control by crews, thickness of armor belts and other areas of the ships, radar/sonar, fleet screening tasks...there are others i'm leaving out. but it's Kly's formula and it is the best imo it just works. so we bring that into this project too.
with that said, here's an overview of each class of ship :
TRs - buildable anywhere, immune to coastal tile mvmt penalty (more on that later), not sure on TR capacity yet but somewhere between 4 and 6, 6 movement rate most likely
fast TRs - buildable with Industry resource, also immune to coastal tile mvmt penalty, 2-3 TR capacity probably, 8-10 movement rate (not sure yet; Kly ? what do you think ?)
ES : escort ship, Japan only, slow, buildable in pac islands probably, will match base TR rate of 6 so they can tag along, crappy stats compared to cruisers, DDs, and up, immune to coast mvmt penalty
the penalty for sea units going onto Coast tiles will be 10 mvmt pts. this will stick the big ships in mud, so to speak. we've never done this before so this is sort of a wip in terms of seeing whether our idea on paper will transfer well enough to gameplay. on paper, yes, but i need to eyeball it before cementing it. CLs, DDs, ESs, both TR units will be immune to it as will (probably) CVLs. will probably leave CVEs with the penalty and definitely the fleet carriers (CVs). SSs, BBs and CAs will have it also. so this will mean that it will take a hot minute (another turn) to get into position to bombard. getting out from the coastal tile and away from potential shore bombardment will be more difficult. again, all a wip but we want to make it harder to just stack'em up and blast away.
DDs - iron & coal needed, has the 'Detect Invisible' bonus, fleet speed in that it can keep up with the big ships. immune to the coastal tile penalty
CLs - iron & coal, 'Radar' bonus, fleet speed too, immune to coastal penalty
CAs - unbuildable, spawned for US though, no discernible bonus outside of well rounded a/d no's and bombardment ratings. susceptible to coast tile mvmt penalty
BBs - only US gets spawns, trying to figure out if british pac fleet can get them, free france was there too (richelieu). 'Collateral Damage' bonus, susceptible to coast tile mvmt penalty
CVs - spawned, 'Radar' bonus, susceptible to coast tile mvmt penalty
CVEs - spawned for Japan, buildable for US with Pac Islands, also 'Radar', not sure yet on tile mvmt penalty
CVLs - spawned for Japan, buildable for US with Imperialism, 'Radar', NOT susceptible to coast tile mvmt penalty
SSs - 'Invisible', decent bombardment ratings
all sea units with bombardment ratings have the 'Lethal Sea' bonus. you put a 'hole' in a ship, it could sink, right ? it only takes one 'hole' in some cases.
Japan will have the bulk of her naval inventory pre-placed, sort of an 'at their zenith' point of view. US will have some ok starting assets. but it's what rolls out in the ensuing years that will tip the balance at sea. so it will end up being a numbers game that Japan will have a devil of a time trying to not only fend off but keep up, numerically speaking (will be very difficult, i promise).
the model of the sea units is based off the one used for AoI. it is a conglomeration of several criteria such as displacement, total guns, caliber of guns, quality of fire control, quality of shell, torp tubes, quality of the torps themselves, top speeds, damage control by crews, thickness of armor belts and other areas of the ships, radar/sonar, fleet screening tasks...there are others i'm leaving out. but it's Kly's formula and it is the best imo
it just works. so we bring that into this project too.with that said, here's an overview of each class of ship :
TRs - buildable anywhere, immune to coastal tile mvmt penalty (more on that later), not sure on TR capacity yet but somewhere between 4 and 6, 6 movement rate most likely
fast TRs - buildable with Industry resource, also immune to coastal tile mvmt penalty, 2-3 TR capacity probably, 8-10 movement rate (not sure yet; Kly ? what do you think ?)
ES : escort ship, Japan only, slow, buildable in pac islands probably, will match base TR rate of 6 so they can tag along, crappy stats compared to cruisers, DDs, and up, immune to coast mvmt penalty
the penalty for sea units going onto Coast tiles will be 10 mvmt pts. this will stick the big ships in mud, so to speak. we've never done this before so this is sort of a wip in terms of seeing whether our idea on paper will transfer well enough to gameplay. on paper, yes, but i need to eyeball it before cementing it. CLs, DDs, ESs, both TR units will be immune to it as will (probably) CVLs. will probably leave CVEs with the penalty and definitely the fleet carriers (CVs). SSs, BBs and CAs will have it also. so this will mean that it will take a hot minute (another turn) to get into position to bombard. getting out from the coastal tile and away from potential shore bombardment will be more difficult. again, all a wip but we want to make it harder to just stack'em up and blast away.
DDs - iron & coal needed, has the 'Detect Invisible' bonus, fleet speed in that it can keep up with the big ships. immune to the coastal tile penalty
CLs - iron & coal, 'Radar' bonus, fleet speed too, immune to coastal penalty
CAs - unbuildable, spawned for US though, no discernible bonus outside of well rounded a/d no's and bombardment ratings. susceptible to coast tile mvmt penalty
BBs - only US gets spawns, trying to figure out if british pac fleet can get them, free france was there too (richelieu). 'Collateral Damage' bonus, susceptible to coast tile mvmt penalty
CVs - spawned, 'Radar' bonus, susceptible to coast tile mvmt penalty
CVEs - spawned for Japan, buildable for US with Pac Islands, also 'Radar', not sure yet on tile mvmt penalty
CVLs - spawned for Japan, buildable for US with Imperialism, 'Radar', NOT susceptible to coast tile mvmt penalty
SSs - 'Invisible', decent bombardment ratings
all sea units with bombardment ratings have the 'Lethal Sea' bonus. you put a 'hole' in a ship, it could sink, right ? it only takes one 'hole' in some cases.
Japan will have the bulk of her naval inventory pre-placed, sort of an 'at their zenith' point of view. US will have some ok starting assets. but it's what rolls out in the ensuing years that will tip the balance at sea. so it will end up being a numbers game that Japan will have a devil of a time trying to not only fend off but keep up, numerically speaking (will be very difficult, i promise).
scratchthepitch
King
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2010
- Messages
- 798
El Justo
"coast tile mvmt penalty"
You guys may have mentioned how that works before, but I missed it. How do you work it so some ships have move limits on coast tiles, which don't apply to the other 2 ocean tiles?
"all sea units with bombardment ratings have the 'Lethal Sea' bonus."
Word of caution. I originally set ships up that way when I was modding the game and noticed that the AI ships then would then only attack other ships using bombardment. They would not close and attack regularly any more. Switching the ships to non lethal bombardment then changed the AI tactics so they would attack regularly sometimes, sometimes not. The AI would use multiple weaker units to wear down a stronger unit in an intelligent manner, I found to my surprise. This was with both lethal and non lethal bombardment. Since there is no return fire in bombardment, using bombardment by ships to sink other ships made it way too easy for a player to dominate the AI and took all the challenge away because you could then attack AI ships without them being able to hit you back. The Civ AI relies upon the rng to even up the score and this bypassed the rng altogether. I ended up leaving the ships with non lethal bombardment, which wasn't that great, either, but it did give the AI a little bit more of a sporting chance, since the player would have to close to finally sink the ship after the bombardment. The victim would at least have some opportunity to return fire before it was sunk.
"coast tile mvmt penalty"
You guys may have mentioned how that works before, but I missed it. How do you work it so some ships have move limits on coast tiles, which don't apply to the other 2 ocean tiles?
"all sea units with bombardment ratings have the 'Lethal Sea' bonus."
Word of caution. I originally set ships up that way when I was modding the game and noticed that the AI ships then would then only attack other ships using bombardment. They would not close and attack regularly any more. Switching the ships to non lethal bombardment then changed the AI tactics so they would attack regularly sometimes, sometimes not. The AI would use multiple weaker units to wear down a stronger unit in an intelligent manner, I found to my surprise. This was with both lethal and non lethal bombardment. Since there is no return fire in bombardment, using bombardment by ships to sink other ships made it way too easy for a player to dominate the AI and took all the challenge away because you could then attack AI ships without them being able to hit you back. The Civ AI relies upon the rng to even up the score and this bypassed the rng altogether. I ended up leaving the ships with non lethal bombardment, which wasn't that great, either, but it did give the AI a little bit more of a sporting chance, since the player would have to close to finally sink the ship after the bombardment. The victim would at least have some opportunity to return fire before it was sunk.
El Justo
Deity
yes, it's sort of new to us also.
here's how it works :
in the editor, there's a section in the Terrain tab, same as where you set the mvmt. grassland, plains have it at 1, hills 2, mtns 3 i think. so in this instance, i set the movement rate for coast tiles at 10. now, here's the kicker : certain ships have the 'Ignore Tile Movement Penalty' field checked off. it's the smaller ones like escorts, TRs, DDs, CLs, and probably CVLs that will be able to move freely on coast tiles and not absorb the 10 movement point penalty. this is all a wip. so we're gonna have to see how it unfolds. if it ain't workin', we ditch it. however, on paper, it seems like a pretty good way to make it more difficult to get the big ships (and SSs) into position to plaster the enemy.
we've normally set all ships with the lethal sea tag. but i'll keep an eye on it. thanks.
here's how it works :
in the editor, there's a section in the Terrain tab, same as where you set the mvmt. grassland, plains have it at 1, hills 2, mtns 3 i think. so in this instance, i set the movement rate for coast tiles at 10. now, here's the kicker : certain ships have the 'Ignore Tile Movement Penalty' field checked off. it's the smaller ones like escorts, TRs, DDs, CLs, and probably CVLs that will be able to move freely on coast tiles and not absorb the 10 movement point penalty. this is all a wip. so we're gonna have to see how it unfolds. if it ain't workin', we ditch it. however, on paper, it seems like a pretty good way to make it more difficult to get the big ships (and SSs) into position to plaster the enemy.
we've normally set all ships with the lethal sea tag. but i'll keep an eye on it. thanks.
Ares de Borg
Norman Knight
I've applied a similar modification in my game: I've given coastal movement a penalty of 2, so every large ship that wants to transverse those waters will have to do it at half speed. It works quite nicely and also affects the AI's pathfinding. I've excluded subs from this penalty, btw, making slow speeds for capital ships even more dangerous.
El Justo
Deity
you're right
Looks like I need to catch up a bit.
While the different tech trees based on position may be a bit more work, it is far easier once you have them done to make adjustments on just how fast you would like a given side to progress through the tech tree. El Justo and I had a early discussion about this simply because from a scientific standpoint of view, there was a huge disparity between the US position and other positions. There is simply no way the Japanese are going to keep up from a scientific standpoint of view. In addition, it helps weed out doing techs that don't get a given side anything. (The US researching kamikazie tech?).
Regular transport speed is around a 6. The fast transports work out at 8 or so. The US fast transports were more for raiders, Rangers, etc; not mainline troops. Japanese used fast transports for all sorts of troop movements, but in all cases, "fast transport" was a small portion of the lift available to move troops around and were not capable of carrying much of anything else beyond men and small arms. No artillery, other heavy equipment or a lot of supplies went by fast transport. (maybe consider fast transport can only carry "foot" while regular transport can carry whatever).
While the different tech trees based on position may be a bit more work, it is far easier once you have them done to make adjustments on just how fast you would like a given side to progress through the tech tree. El Justo and I had a early discussion about this simply because from a scientific standpoint of view, there was a huge disparity between the US position and other positions. There is simply no way the Japanese are going to keep up from a scientific standpoint of view. In addition, it helps weed out doing techs that don't get a given side anything. (The US researching kamikazie tech?).
Regular transport speed is around a 6. The fast transports work out at 8 or so. The US fast transports were more for raiders, Rangers, etc; not mainline troops. Japanese used fast transports for all sorts of troop movements, but in all cases, "fast transport" was a small portion of the lift available to move troops around and were not capable of carrying much of anything else beyond men and small arms. No artillery, other heavy equipment or a lot of supplies went by fast transport. (maybe consider fast transport can only carry "foot" while regular transport can carry whatever).
El Justo
Deity
thanks old buddy. btw, that was a foul ball that molina hit down the line last night 
good news x 3:
Japanese DDs into folders, editor, unit32 sheet
x/y coordinates for the techs should be done in the coming days. started with base template this afternoon.
Balthasar has agreed to create a unique interface for our little project
along with some other nick-nacks that he can do way better than me
good news x 3:
Japanese DDs into folders, editor, unit32 sheet
x/y coordinates for the techs should be done in the coming days. started with base template this afternoon.
Balthasar has agreed to create a unique interface for our little project
along with some other nick-nacks that he can do way better than me 
scratchthepitch
King
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2010
- Messages
- 798
El Justo, Ares de Borg, Civinator
Thanks. Now that it is explained, I realized I had used a similar idea for land movement, but it never occurred to me to use it for sea movement. On land it worked very well, and bumped up the challenge against the AI considerably. Using it to restrict certain ships in inshore/narrow waters is a great idea.
Thanks. Now that it is explained, I realized I had used a similar idea for land movement, but it never occurred to me to use it for sea movement. On land it worked very well, and bumped up the challenge against the AI considerably. Using it to restrict certain ships in inshore/narrow waters is a great idea.
El Justo
Deity
we surely weren't the first ones to try such tricks i do seem to recall both Civinator and Ares posting about this before, the tile movement penalty.
i do seem to recall both Civinator and Ares posting about this before, the tile movement penalty.Bowsling
Deity
It's also done in the out-of-the-box Age of Discovery Scenario, where ocean tiles cost extra movement, but there are passages of sea leading to the New World. This means that most shipping happens along those routes, so you can actually disrupt shipping without covering the Atlantic with privateers.
scratchthepitch
King
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2010
- Messages
- 798
Giving ocean tiles different movement costs could be used to differentiate between different sailing rigs and better show how each had advantages and disadvantages. This besides allowing smaller craft to move better in tight waters. When modding I had been looking for such a way to show that a fore and aft rig worked better close to the wind along a coast, and how a square rig was better before the wind out on the open ocean, in order to mod the sailing types closer to their real world examples. I had been looking for such a system, but at the time I failed to realize I could have tinkered with ocean terrain and ship movement factors the same way I did with land units and terrain. Such a system would work to show a fore and after's advantage working close inshore, while still allowing for the large square rigger's advantage on the open sea. I'll have to remember this if I ever get back to modding this game. And as Bowsling noted about the AOD game, it could also be used to model trade winds somewhat for specific scenarios.
El Justo
Deity
interesting. thanks fellas
Gary Childress
Student for and of life
Balthasar has agreed to create a unique interface for our little project
This is good news! If it turns out anything like his Vietnam interface it will be a great one!
El Justo
Deity
yes, that is a gem looking forward to seeing how it turns out.
looking forward to seeing how it turns out.You can use it at othe rlevels of detail, flat-bottomed riverboats will only be able to navigate shallow waters while being brought to a standstill (with risk of sinking) in the open seas (you need to transship, say, in an Egypt scenario) and so on. The same could be done, I think, with 'atmosphere' and 'outer space' in space-setting scenarios.
