I've got it! I know how to make colonies sensible!!!

Mik1984

Mik1984

Prince
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
483
A new deal is available in the game: cede military control. A vassal may give the master military control over his units(that does not include spies, work boats, workers, settlers or scouts/explorers, corp exec, missionaries, great people, great generals - unless attached to a unit as a warlord etc)
The deal is negotiable and friendly vassals are always willing to trade it of a tech or two. The deal lasts for 25(50 marathon) turns and may be renegotiated before it expires, but not cumulatively.
Colonies start with this deal being active. The master may upgrade the units he controls in the vassals cities, even if the vassal doesn't have the technology(but needs the resource if required) while paying for the vassals units upgrades from his own pocket.
 
I actually have thought of a number of diplomatic options along these lines. I think you suggestion is sensible, but perhaps should cost the "master" additional gold or resources or something. The idea is that the Colony is going to want some serious payback for the "deaths" in their population.

It could even be a negative modifier on the diplomacy ratings.

-- SJN
 
I like it!:woohoo:


In the same vein, wouldn't it be great to have a cede voting proxy
that would allow you to cast your vassal's votes in the AP and UN in exchange for happiness resources or techs or something to placate his people?
The deal would last until the next vote, then would be subject to re-negotiation.
 
This cede voting proxy is nothing new. I urge for restitution of SMAC's diplomacy model.
 
SJN said:
I actually have thought of a number of diplomatic options along these lines. I think you suggestion is sensible, but perhaps should cost the "master" additional gold or resources or something. The idea is that the Colony is going to want some serious payback for the "deaths" in their population.

It could even be a negative modifier on the diplomacy ratings.

-- SJN
Click to expand...

It rather should be a small amount of gold, that the master reimburses to the vassal for each unit lost.
 
^ shouldnt it be other way around? the master is to protect the vassal, how can he protect his vassal he doesnt have enough army of his own? how can vassal protect itself if youre going to take away their forces?
 
jisc said:
^ shouldnt it be other way around? the master is to protect the vassal, how can he protect his vassal he doesnt have enough army of his own? how can vassal protect itself if youre going to take away their forces?
Click to expand...

In theory, maybe. But remember that Great Britain's Boer Wars were fought by Canadian and Australian soldiers, with British officers to lead them. So in practise, the vassal's military very much belongs to the master.

Edit: As another addition to colonies, I've always been quite resentful of colonies who research something and then "don't want to trade away this just yet". This is NOT acceptable relations with the Motherland.
 
Sounds like a good idea. I'd much prefer to see a "Recruiter" unit, that will let you "draft" a unit from larger colonial cities. So, you send recruiters over to your colony, use the special, and the drafting consumes 1 pop and 1 recruiter. That new unit is whatever your colony's current "infantry" is (meaning if they have Muskets and you have Rifles, they become a musket), and the unit can be settled back back in the city. For example--no more than 1/4 of a population can be "recruited", and the actual versus current populations can change. If you recruit a Pop4 city and make it Pop3, you have to wait until it hits Pop7 (Pop8 - 1 recruited unit) to recruit again, or settle that unit you took back into the city. Some other things like it only works when you're at Pleased or better relations, in a state of war, and they cost double the normal unit maintenance. It would let the Master quickly pull up a defending force when they're fighting elsewhere--so the Colony's short-term and long-term safety is assured. That, or at the end of a war, the units are automatically settled back into the city. Last thing--your recruiting counts towards your draft limit (on marathon, it would limit it to 5 recruits a turn), and the units cannot leave the cultural boundries of the vassal or colony. You control them, and they will automatically resettle upon orders to the correct city.
 
Nah, I don't think that this recruiter is a good idea. It's a micromanagement burden, moreover a pointless one, since the only reason why you need the units of your vassals is to use it in your wars.

Maybe the number of units you control might be limited, so that you cannot move the last unit out of a vassals city as well as you don't control transports who have a non military unit on board. You would also pay the supply costs for the units, if you send them away from vassals territory.
That's it. Nothing more.
 
Eh. So much of Civ is unlockable by micromanagement. Yeah it's a big task, but being able to recruit a temporary army to defend your vassal (be it capitulated, colony, or normal vassal) can be the difference between winning and losing. A great example of this is when you're playing a one-city-challenge and lack iron or lack oil or any other resource. The only reliable way to get a resource beyond your borders is to control the civ with that resource.

To do it simply, you build a recruiter, send them to the city however you want, use them like a missionary or a corporate exec, and get a unit. You can move it within the vassal's cultural boundries and attack within that area, and the resettle them. You pay a little bit extra and have a quick army to defend.
 
Mik1984 said:
Nah, I don't think that this recruiter is a good idea. It's a micromanagement burden, moreover a pointless one, since the only reason why you need the units of your vassals is to use it in your wars.
Click to expand...

Having to take control of a CPU's sloppily constructed army isn't a micromanagement burden? To me, it seems that the recruiter option would require vastly less micromanagement, since you get what/how many units you want, not every musket and horse archer the CPU has collecting dust in their antiquated armies.
 
Other things that comes to mind...

You can pay cash to upgrade their armies if you really want to. They're your units, but they're not allowed to leave their territory. To stop them from being overpowered, you can retake captured cities as long as they are still at least culturally 50% the vassal's.

I don't want those ancient troops that won't do much, and will cost me hundreds or thousands of gold each to upgrade to be useful. That type of thing should give you a Draft benefit from your vassal's cities, but still make sure the game is balanced when you cannot afford ten SoDs.
 
How about if you're running Nationalism you could look into your vassal's city and click 'DRAFT' drafting your own unit out of the vassals population?
 
Bob-san said:
Sounds like a good idea. I'd much prefer to see a "Recruiter" unit, that will let you "draft" a unit from larger colonial cities. So, you send recruiters over to your colony, use the special, and the drafting consumes 1 pop and 1 recruiter. That new unit is whatever your colony's current "infantry" is (meaning if they have Muskets and you have Rifles, they become a musket), and the unit can be settled back back in the city. For example--no more than 1/4 of a population can be "recruited", and the actual versus current populations can change. If you recruit a Pop4 city and make it Pop3, you have to wait until it hits Pop7 (Pop8 - 1 recruited unit) to recruit again, or settle that unit you took back into the city. Some other things like it only works when you're at Pleased or better relations, in a state of war, and they cost double the normal unit maintenance. It would let the Master quickly pull up a defending force when they're fighting elsewhere--so the Colony's short-term and long-term safety is assured. That, or at the end of a war, the units are automatically settled back into the city. Last thing--your recruiting counts towards your draft limit (on marathon, it would limit it to 5 recruits a turn), and the units cannot leave the cultural boundries of the vassal or colony. You control them, and they will automatically resettle upon orders to the correct city.
Click to expand...

Umh. Isn't it just as easy to build an actual unit instead of a "recruiter"? And then send that unit to the vassal city. Gift it if necessary.
 
i think there must be a 'trade units' option at the diplomatic screen. So you can trade units or to demand them as tribute. this units simply become your units and you can do with them what you want. but they become an enemy units when war is declared against their former country and windthraw beyond the borders
 
It would be great to have some development in this area. After all, militaries often downsize after a major war. Troops go home and look for work. Governments sell off excess and obsolete equipment overseas to reduce maint costs.

Perhaps the abillity to negotiate for siege, naval and air equipment that was within your borders, or offer yours for sale when you delivered it to another country.

The experience would be lost, but the "crews" would return to your capital as workers.

If you purchased equipment, it would start at reduced health, to represent the delay it would take to adequately crew and supply it before it was fully useful.
 
What would be a very good Idea in my mind ->

Would be if AI vassals of an AI master had the military unit controlled by the AI master. This would seriously improve the Military AI in my mind as the AI could concentrate all its forces which it often doesnt do.

Also I think it would really help the AI win domination/conquest victories.
 
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