PolyCast Episode 85: "That's What He Said"

It's out there. The eighty-fifth episode of PolyCast now netcasting brings about the show's fifth season, including a key personnel change. "That's What He Said" features regular co-hosts Daniel "DanQ" Quick, Stephanie "Makahlua", Philip "TheMeInTeam" Bellew and Lisa "qnl" Bang with guest co-host Imran "Imran Siddiqui" Siddiqui

The summary of topics is as follows:

- 02m10s | News
Goodbye to Imran "Imran Siddiqui" Siddiqui as a regular co-host on the show, and hello to Lisa "qnl" Bang.
- 14m50s | Forum Talk
Does the Civilization IV Artifical Intelligence (AI) care if it wins, on trade routes and its income, going for a defensive or offensive military, and reference charts including the Beyond the Sword expansion.
- 32m06s | Research Lab
A proposed solution for the (in)famous 'Stack of Doom'.

- Intro/Outro | Miscellaneous
What to listen and when to listen to it, and some memories... remembered.

PolyCast is a bi-weekly audio production in an ongoing effort to give the Civ community an interactive voice on game strategy; this is the last episode of the this, its third season, and will return for a fourth beginning next month. Sibling show ModCast focuses on Civ modding and RevCast focuses on Civilization: Revolution, both of which are to have their respective season premieres this month too.

As always, enjoy.

Excellent episode guys, so sad to see Mran going off, glad I got to guest with him. And nice job getting QNL on there and TMIT how is more women EVER a bad thing???

Speaking of TMIT I think him and MLS can cover the Smarta$$ quota just fine lol. Though ones like Mran are one of a kind.

It is interesting to see a discussion on if the Computer has feelings like caring if they win or loose. Though I gotta say more often then not Ghandi really doesn't seem to care. TMIT is right though the AI is just runing IF_THEN blocks with a dice roller which I do think can add to the game to make things as different as possible.

As for the Trade route discussion I can confirm that if your only route goes through Civ A then your routes to Civ B will be cut off as I did in a Noble game. Ragnar was turning into my buddy (not intentional on my part) and he kept declaring war on other civs really pissing them off. He did this especially to Lincoln who was between us. So eventually I got dragged into it (it seemed like a good idea at the time) Then as soon as I declare my trade with Ragnar ceases.

Nice episode.

On stacks of doom and a bit of discussion about that, I agreed for the most part, but thought that there was a little confusion about what an exponential penalty would do. It wouldn't reduce the power of each unit to 1, it would just mean that for each additional unit in the stack, less total power is added to the stack than when the previous unit was added. So each additional unit in the stack makes less of a difference than the preceding one. So a stack of, say, 20 units would still be more powerful than a stack of 19 units, but that one unit difference would not make as much difference to the total power as the extra unit difference would between, say, 9 and 10 units.

Also, there was the misconception that people complain about stacks of doom because they hate the AI using them against them. This is not generally the case (although that is annoying). Most complaints come from the lack of ability to use various strategies in war, because there is only really one that is clearly dominant. People would like to be able to split their invasion force up and attack across a wider front, but because stacks of doom are so dominant, they are forced back to using them, because otherwise they will lose.

Oh, and to Imran.

Speaking of TMIT I think him and MLS can cover the Smarta$$ quota just fine lol. Though ones like Mran are one of a kind.

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. Looks like I'm on my own during most recordings then. I'll see if I can't channel some intelligent derriere here and there.

On stacks of doom and a bit of discussion about that, I agreed for the most part, but thought that there was a little confusion about what an exponential penalty would do. It wouldn't reduce the power of each unit to 1, it would just mean that for each additional unit in the stack, less total power is added to the stack than when the previous unit was added. So each additional unit in the stack makes less of a difference than the preceding one. So a stack of, say, 20 units would still be more powerful than a stack of 19 units, but that one unit difference would not make as much difference to the total power as the extra unit difference would between, say, 9 and 10 units.

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That's interesting, and a better implimentation than a strength penalty. However, it's not a great deal different from the current situation due to collateral damage. As stacks get bigger, a lower % of that size is needed in siege + cleanup to screw it over decently. I guess you could use this feature to tone it down, but beware that it also encourages stacking to an extent.

Also, there was the misconception that people complain about stacks of doom because they hate the AI using them against them. This is not generally the case (although that is annoying). Most complaints come from the lack of ability to use various strategies in war, because there is only really one that is clearly dominant. People would like to be able to split their invasion force up and attack across a wider front, but because stacks of doom are so dominant, they are forced back to using them, because otherwise they will lose.

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The AI is the only side shackled to a SoD. I often do 2, 3, or 4 way stack splits to speed up wars. But that's for conventional, land unit + siege fights. My record I think is ~ 20 way stack split, with a sub or two filled with tac nukes, and a transport with 4 marines in each one. Obviously, whatever naval stack or units the AI had was gone after that.

Big SoD is also not QUITE as dominant in multiplayer. The AI can rely on bonuses to deal with surprise back attacks, forks, surprise naval razing raids (some people might still be a little sore over that 9x city razing in one turn ), and chokes. Humans can quickly fall to any of those if not prepared. One can make a valid argument that AI strategy plays a larger role in the SoD tendency than the mechanics, and that if it didn't the game would play out very differently.

However, I think it would be hard to give the AI decent algorithms for these strategies. The only relatively easy ones (saying this w/o any programming knowledge, but intuitively) would be getting it to pillage/choke more early (this would be unreasonable on high difficulties though) and/or getting it to pull forks (try to stand equal distance between cities so that the human can't properly garrison both).

NOooooooooooooooooooooooooo Imran

It will never be the same.

Wow --- just found your pod

How have I missed you Guys, I've been prowling the forums for years, never came across your pod casts (that I can remember) looks like there's a back issue to catch up on -- till the next one.

keep up the good work, it's appreciated

Though I said so more than once on the show itself, I will say it again here to echo part of many of the comments so far: though the show will not be the same without Imran as a regular co-host, we're looking forward to his future guest appearances.

AlphaShard said:

As for the Trade route discussion I can confirm that if your only route goes through Civ A then your routes to Civ B will be cut off...

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Vindication!

kosiosko 1 said:

Wow --- just found your pod

How have I missed you Guys, I've been prowling the forums for years, never came across your pod casts (that I can remember) looks like there's a back issue to catch up on -- till the next one.

keep up the good work, it's appreciated

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Greetings, new listener.

Just stumbled upon these a couple weeks ago and I've listened all the way back to around 70 now. Great work! Funny and educational at the same time, a combination that can never go wrong

Thanks for all of the great work!

Good bye Imran Polycast won't be quite the same.

I loved the "best of Imran"-segment

Also: Wow! Fourth season already?

Cjreynol said:

Just stumbled upon these a couple weeks ago and I've listened all the way back to around 70 now. Great work! Funny and educational at the same time, a combination that can never go wrong

Thanks for all of the great work!

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And a greeting to you as well, new listener. Thank you for the kind words too! The underlying objective of the show is indeed to entertain and inform Civ.

Lars_Domus said:

I loved the "best of Imran"-segment

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Thanks. It's nice to know when that segment is being well received in particular given the effort put into putting it together, mostly in clip selection from archives over three seasons.

Also: Wow! Fourth season already?

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It is. It's quite accurate to regard the show's first season popularity as having been dwarfed by the second and third, so perhaps that's why it doesn't feel quite that long.

I really did love hearing the bit of Imran "off air" trying to get a movie date going.

Did you guys just kick him off the call or leave it on to see if he came back? Here I thought I was absent minded.

AlphaShard said:

I really did love hearing the bit of Imran "off air" trying to get a movie date going.

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Did you guys just kick him off the call or leave it on to see if he came back? Here I thought I was absent minded.

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We left it on to see if he came back -- it ultimately dropped on his end.

Thanks again guys...I love listening to these podcasts when I'm out jogging. (Takes my mind of the pain of exercising and focuses it on the pain of how crappy I am at Civ : ) )

dennisg said:

Thanks again guys...I love listening to these podcasts when I'm out jogging.

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You are most welcome -- thank you for tuning in.

(Takes my mind of the pain of exercising and focuses it on the pain of how crappy I am at Civ : ) )

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As long as you're having fun, it's all that matters. (And yes, I'm referring to the Civing, not the jogging. )