[1.0.1.383] DoW on third parties occurs if units within Nuke Blast Radius

[dexters]

DoW will occur if a third party's units are in foreign territory (ie: both parties already at war or perhaps have Open borders) and you nuke a city that happen to catch their units within blast radius.

This is not the same as the Nuke blast radius expanding into a neighbouring Civ's tiles. Which was patched earlier this year.

Posted a post-win load when I'm just having fun.

Try to Nuke the Incan city of Vilcas w/out playing any turns. There should be an Atom bomber in range. Nuking it will cause DoW with Germany who happens to have a worker right outside the city (Germany is at war with Inca)

There;s really no way of knowing what units are nearby due to the fog of war. I can see it being a 'design feature' but it seems kind of cruel and random to allow it.

 

[Ranos]

This is how Civ Nukes have always been. In your attack on the Inca, Germany's unit takes damage, so you basically attacked Germany's unit as well. It would be just like you having a unit there and attacking the worker directly.

 

[dexters]

This is how Civ Nukes have always been. In your attack on the Inca, Germany's unit takes damage, so you basically attacked Germany's unit as well. It would be just like you having a unit there and attacking the worker directly.

I don't believe this was the intent with Civ5 though. They did fix the nuke radius spilling into third party's territory and triggering a war.

The problem with third party units getting hit by nukes, given the range of nukes and the nature of the fog of war, you could potentially trigger a war with an ally who 'happen' to have a unit close by.

 

[Ranos]

I don't believe this was the intent with Civ5 though. They did fix the nuke radius spilling into third party's territory and triggering a war.

The problem with third party units getting hit by nukes, given the range of nukes and the nature of the fog of war, you could potentially trigger a war with an ally who 'happen' to have a unit close by.

Which means you have to be careful when you are firing your nukes off. I would be willing to bet it was their intent for nuke radius spillover and hitting a third party unit with nukes to trigger war with that civ. Enough people complained about the spillover for them to change it. Since hitting a third party unit has always caused war in civ, I can't see them changing that and wouldn't want them to. Thats one of the risks you take when you fire off a nuke at someone.

 

[Mercade]

If an allied unit is within the blast radius, but invisible under the fog of war at the moment of nuking, it would stand to reason if this was not cause for an automatic DoW. It's not a bug in that the code does as advertised, but it's certainly something that I would say isn't intended also given that they fixed the nuke radius spilling into 3rd party territory and subsequent DoW.

@Ramos: Surely the unit should die from the blast, but I don't think it should cause a DoW. In war you can always hit the wrong person accidentally, but with some apoligies and cookies that generally doesn't result in war between the allies. And other than nukes I don't see a lot of situations where you can accidentally hit a 3rd party anyway.

 

[Ranos]

If an allied unit is within the blast radius, but invisible under the fog of war at the moment of nuking, it would stand to reason if this was not cause for an automatic DoW. It's not a bug in that the code does as advertised, but it's certainly something that I would say isn't intended also given that they fixed the nuke radius spilling into 3rd party territory and subsequent DoW.

@Ramos: Surely the unit should die from the blast, but I don't think it should cause a DoW. In war you can always hit the wrong person accidentally, but with some apoligies and cookies that generally doesn't result in war between the allies. And other than nukes I don't see a lot of situations where you can accidentally hit a 3rd party anyway.

If you were at a bar with your girlfriend and some guy threw a beer bottle at some other guy but missed and hit your girlfriend, would you just say, "Oh well, he was aiming for the other guy and just accidentally hit you. No big deal"? What if the guy came over and apologized? Would it be okay then?

Now I'm not suggesting you just go over and start a fight with the guy, but you aren't going to be okay with it. I know I wouldn't. I'd probably get the cops involved and make sure they guy's insurance paid for the hospital bills if there were any.

In real life, if it was ally that got accidentally nuked, there would be political fallout. Tensions would be highly strained and the country who's soldiers died would probably want some sort of compensation to give to the victims' families. But Civ is not realy life and in CiV, there are no allies.

Yeah you can have defensive pacts and that sort of makes you allies, but not really. And when you use nukes, other Civs don't like it so much. You take a diplo hit when you use nukes on other civs afaik (I've only used nukes a couple of times in V and it's been a while since I did that).

And you are right, nuking is the only way to accidentally hit a third party in CiV. Doesn't mean it shouldn't work like it's always worked. I personally think that if you nuke another civs lands as part of an attack, it should be a diplo hit at least. But obviously enough people complained about it that they changed it.

 

[dexters]

Ranos your reasoning is sound.

But it would also stand to reason, if they really have a cest la vie approach to nukes, that they did not fix the nuclear blast radius on border towns spilling into a neutral third party's borders and causing them to DoW,

Since they fixed that, this unit issue seems like a corollary effect that was missed and it was worth raising.

This is the bug reports forum, there's no need to jump to conclusions and shoot down potential bug reports. Even if it is unfixable, a pop up with a general warning saying 3rd party units caught in the radius will constitute a DoW would certainly help the majority of players know the consequences.

 

[Mercade]

If you were at a bar with your girlfriend and some guy threw a beer bottle at some other guy but missed and hit your girlfriend, would you just say, "Oh well, he was aiming for the other guy and just accidentally hit you. No big deal"? What if the guy came over and apologized? Would it be okay then?

Now I'm not suggesting you just go over and start a fight with the guy, but you aren't going to be okay with it. I know I wouldn't. I'd probably get the cops involved and make sure they guy's insurance paid for the hospital bills if there were any.

In real life, if it was ally that got accidentally nuked, there would be political fallout. Tensions would be highly strained and the country who's soldiers died would probably want some sort of compensation to give to the victims' families. But Civ is not realy life and in CiV, there are no allies.

Yeah you can have defensive pacts and that sort of makes you allies, but not really. And when you use nukes, other Civs don't like it so much. You take a diplo hit when you use nukes on other civs afaik (I've only used nukes a couple of times in V and it's been a while since I did that).

And you are right, nuking is the only way to accidentally hit a third party in CiV. Doesn't mean it shouldn't work like it's always worked. I personally think that if you nuke another civs lands as part of an attack, it should be a diplo hit at least. Nut obviously enough people complained about it that they changed it.

Sure, if my friend accidentally hit my GF with a bottle, I'd be upset and make sure any damage is taken care of - we aren't as litigious over here - but I wouldn't cancel our friendship, cancel any debt I owe him and reclaim the landmower he borrowed.

It's the only case of friendly fire in Civ5 and also in real, friendly fire happens all the time. Sure, allies don't like it, compensation may be due, but it is an increased risk if you are allied and fighting a common foe. You don't immediately cancel friendship, revoke trade deals, void owed debt and go to WAR with your partner because some of his troups got accidentally obliterated.

 

[Ranos]

Sure, if my friend accidentally hit my GF with a bottle, I'd be upset and make sure any damage is taken care of - we aren't as litigious over here - but I wouldn't cancel our friendship, cancel any debt I owe him and reclaim the landmower he borrowed.

It's the only case of friendly fire in Civ5 and also in real, friendly fire happens all the time. Sure, allies don't like it, compensation may be due, but it is an increased risk if you are allied and fighting a common foe. You don't immediately cancel friendship, revoke trade deals, void owed debt and go to WAR with your partner because some of his troups got accidentally obliterated.

There's a big difference between a blown up convoy or a few troops that get shot up by accident and an entire company or brigade that gets vaporized by a nuke.

I can guarantee you that if we were at war with someone and Britain was our ally in it and we nuked an enemy city or used a tactical nuke on a bunch of enemy troops and some of britains troops got caught in it, there would be huge reprecussions. The citizens of Britain would demand it of their leaders.

Think of it as the difference between your friend hitting your gf with a bottle and your friend accidentally shooting her.

 

[dexters]

So Ranos, back to the question. Why should they fix the nuke blast radius spilling into neutral territory but not this?

 

[Ranos]

So Ranos, back to the question. Why should they fix the nuke blast radius spilling into neutral territory but not this?

My apologies dexters I never responded to your previous post.

Ranos your reasoning is sound.

But it would also stand to reason, if they really have a cest la vie approach to nukes, that they did not fix the nuclear blast radius on border towns spilling into a neutral third party's borders and causing them to DoW,

Since they fixed that, this unit issue seems like a corollary effect that was missed and it was worth raising.

Post #4 in this thread:

Which means you have to be careful when you are firing your nukes off. I would be willing to bet it was their intent for nuke radius spillover and hitting a third party unit with nukes to trigger war with that civ. Enough people complained about the spillover for them to change it. Since hitting a third party unit has always caused war in civ, I can't see them changing that and wouldn't want them to. Thats one of the risks you take when you fire off a nuke at someone.

Post #6 in this thread, last paragraph:

And you are right, nuking is the only way to accidentally hit a third party in CiV. Doesn't mean it shouldn't work like it's always worked. I personally think that if you nuke another civs lands as part of an attack, it should be a diplo hit at least. But obviously enough people complained about it that they changed it.

This is the bug reports forum, there's no need to jump to conclusions and shoot down potential bug reports. Even if it is unfixable, a pop up with a general warning saying 3rd party units caught in the radius will constitute a DoW would certainly help the majority of players know the consequences.

If you look through the Bug Reports forum, you will find people posting reports of bugs and other people arguing that they aren't bugs. And yes, I'm jumping to the conclusion that it isn't a bug because of the fact that it worked that way in every Civ previously. You are also jumping to a conclusion except yours is that it is a bug because of a similar function that was changed earlier in the year.

I do agree that there should be a popup for it. I think that there were popups in the previous Civ versions just like if you click to move into the same tile a different civ unit is occupying or if you click to move into a different AI's territory. If we get warnings for that, why not for the nukes?

 

[dexters]

Sorry about that.
I jumped to conclusions myself. I appreciate the time you take to respond.