[NFP] [1.0.1.501] Deforestation Bug: 0% to 50% in 1 turn

[MrRadar]

There's something broken with Climate Change now, similar behavior in all post-NFP games so far.

This game was played on normal mode (no Apocalypse) and no mods, all DLC and expansions included.

T277, phase III, deforestation 0%:

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T278, phase IV, deforestation 50%, and I have enough Climate Change points to go up one phase a turn for two turns in a row, and the "Next melt of polar ice expected" forecast at the bottom is completely off:

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I'm attaching a few save files in case they can help.

 

[Pfeffersack]

This bug is still present in v1.0.2.39:

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To reproduce with the attached save:

1. Have a look at the deforestation level and its effect on CO2 emissions. It is labeled as "extreme", but has 0% impact on the emissions. Also have a look on the current lvl of climate change (IV) and the prediction when the climate change is supposed to progress again (in 11 turns)
2. End the turn
3. Check the deforestation level again. The label is still "extreme", but now suddenly increases CO2 emissions by 50% - and the game has already progressed to climate change level V because of this - with the next increase being only 2 turns away
(4. Progress a few turns to hit lvl VI and VII of climate change in almost no time)

 

[Pfeffersack]

Still occuring in v1.0.3.31:

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[Laurana Kanan]

It seems to me it might just be a case of the UI needing to properly update between turns. I've experienced the same and similar issues in my own climate mod. It's a bit frustrating at times to make sure everything is working properly.

 

[Pfeffersack]

It seems to me it might just be a case of the UI needing to properly update between turns. I've experienced the same and similar issues in my own climate mod. It's a bit frustrating at times to make sure everything is working properly.

Could you elaborate, why you think it could be UI-only? My pre-NFP experience was that deforestation had several levels with different labels and percentages (IIRC, apart from the starting level with 0% impact on CO2 emissions, a 10% level, but for sure a 30% one and than in the end 50% for the most serious deforestation level). The CO2 output was constantly multiplied with that percentage, so unless you had one of the "steps" (e.g. from 30 to 50%) you could take that factor in account for your plans.

Since NFP, you immediately get from no to "extrem" deforestation, but the % stays at 0 for a long time. Then suddenly the percentage increase to 50% and has impact on climate change (see my example from 1.0.2.39, where this leads to almost two climate changes phases happening instantly, because of the CO2 levels suddenly getting multiplied by 1.5).

Since you have modded climate already, could you perhaps have a look on the unmodded files to see how it is intended and if possible why deforestation behaves so strange recently? Thank you

 

[Laurana Kanan]

I don't know if I can explain it very well, but there are two different tables at play here. The first is DeforestationLevels. Depending on the level of deforestation points are awarded per turn. In your example, it's 'Extreme', which is after 40% deforestation happens. At that point, 5 deforestation points per turn are added to an internal counter. It's points are different for each level (e.g. for 'Expected' it's between 10% & 25% and adds only 1 deforestation point per turn).

This internal counter is divided by the number of turns played and spits out an average number of points per turn. This then is taken by the second table DeforestationEffects and applies a CO2 percent modifier. In your first image it's 0%, which would equate to an average of <=1. In the second image, at 50%, which would equate to an average >3.

So you could be at greater than 40% deforestation (Extreme), earning 5 points per turn, but until the average points rises above 1, you'll still be at a 0% CO2 modifier. So it's kind of a delayed reaction and won't show in the UI yet if that makes sense. What I assume in your example is that between those two turns the average jumped from <=1 to >3.

Anyway, that's is how I understand the mechanic. I could be wrong about parts, or even most of it. But, in my mod I've mostly succeeded in smoothing out the transitions I think. Now whether the mechanic is working correctly I can't say for sure, I haven't played a full game since the before the June update. There may be something wonky going on.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I don't know if I can explain it very well, but there are two different tables at play here. The first is DeforestationLevels. Depending on the level of deforestation points are awarded per turn. In your example, it's 'Extreme', which is after 40% deforestation happens. At that point, 5 deforestation points per turn are added to an internal counter. It's points are different for each level (e.g. for 'Expected' it's between 10% & 25% and adds only 1 deforestation point per turn).

This internal counter is divided by the number of turns played and spits out an average number of points per turn. This then is taken by the second table DeforestationEffects and applies a CO2 percent modifier. In your first image it's 0%, which would equate to an average of <=1. In the second image, at 50%, which would equate to an average >3.

So you could be at greater than 40% deforestation (Extreme), earning 5 points per turn, but until the average points rises above 1, you'll still be at a 0% CO2 modifier. So it's kind of a delayed reaction and won't show in the UI yet if that makes sense. What I assume in your example is that between those two turns the average jumped from <=1 to >3.

Anyway, that's is how I understand the mechanic. I could be wrong about parts, or even most of it. But, in my mod I've mostly succeeded in smoothing out the transitions I think. Now whether the mechanic is working correctly I can't say for sure, I haven't played a full game since the before the June update. There may be something wonky going on.

Pretty complex, but after reading a few times, I understood your explanation - and I think you are at least really close to how it works in game. My game took an interesting progress - it happened the first time for me that suddenly the deforestation effect on emissions dropped again - from 50% to 30% (though the displayed deforestation level hasn't changed):

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So at least it's no one-way, but I wonder if that has been just an effect of the formula you described and/or my planting of a few new forests over the last couple of turns had an effect. Still the sharp increase before feels strange and the UI is not really helpful here - the tooltip is just not available, as long as there are no emissions.

To reproduce with the attached save:

Check deforestation/CO2, end turn, check again

 

[bonfireg]

I think it is actually a bug. Unless the number of deforestation points increases by an amount more than double the number of turns played it is impossible for the average to go from less than 1 to greater than 3 in one turn.

Also, is it meant for the deforestation modifier to be applied to total cumulative global emissions or is it supposed to just apply to current/future emissions?

 

[Laurana Kanan]

I think it is actually a bug.

I don't think we can say either way at this point since the specifics (i.e. formula) of how the mechanic works can only be deduced through observation and dissecting the code that is exposed. As far as my explanation, it's a possibility that the total deforestation points is divided not by the number of turns played, but the number of turns since CO2 emissions are first emitted.

Also, is it meant for the deforestation modifier to be applied to total cumulative global emissions or is it supposed to just apply to current/future emissions?

It's applied to whatever the current level of total global CO2 emissions is.

 

[bonfireg]

I don't think we can say either way at this point since the specifics (i.e. formula) of how the mechanic works can only be deduced through observation and dissecting the code that is exposed. As far as my explanation, it's a possibility that the total deforestation points is divided not by the number of turns played, but the number of turns since CO2 emissions are first emitted.

It's applied to whatever the current level of total global CO2 emissions is.

I've been paying close attention to the deforestation in my games and I've noticed the "deforestation level" is being shown as "Extreme" the entire game. The modifier being applied is 0% until suddenly it is 50%. This has happened every game no matter how much or how little I am chopping.

 

[MrRadar]

This bug is still present in version 1.0.8.4
The behaviour remains unchanged. Deforestation "Extreme" from the start, then at some point deforestation factor goes from 0% to 50%, speeding the last climate change phases, which then happen turn after turn.

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[Pfeffersack]

Runned into this again in 1.0.11.16 (while trying to shed more light in the issue with C&M, AI and luxuries...).

The save is from a game with an advanced start (modern era) and for the first couple of turns, no CO2 was emitted and the deforestation effect was displayed with 0%:

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Then suddenly within one turn when the first pollution occured, the level raised to "extreme" / +50%:

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Beside that I'm not really sure if I would call the amount of deforestation which happened probably in the game up to that point as "extreme" (ok, it is an advanced start, Deity and everyone has extra settlers, but not even all of them have settled and the map is far from totally "claimed"), even if it is that much - why did it all happen in one turn? And even if the step towards +50% was coincidentially triggering in that turn, why weren't there phases of +10% and +30% before (I'm aware that it makes no difference, if the 0 CO2 here got multiplied with 1.1 or 1.3 before the "jump" - but it just feels buggy...and might make a difference in other situations, as the various examples in the older posts of this thread show)

To reproduce the "jump", just end turn.