(1-18) Replace Double Movement Promotions

[ilteroi]

why should a unit ever be faster in jungle than on plains?

simplest solution: the double movement promotions for the scout line should be replaced by "no movement penalty".

alternatively make them +1 movement independent of terrain/features. or something similar.

opinions?

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edit: concrete proposal for the trailblazer promotion line, taken from @DeAnno below

Trailblazer 1: +1 Speed, +40% Withdraw chance
Trailblazer 2: +1 Speed, +40% Withdraw chance
Trailblazer 3: Ignore ZOC, Can enter mountains, Can embark without fishing

 

[CppMaster]

why should a unit ever be faster in jungle than on plains?

Have you ever seen Tarzan?

 

[Delvemor]

Scouts already have no movement penalty, the +1 movement is already there too.

It could be replaced by bonus XP for exploring forest/jungle and from exploring desert/tundra/snow.

 

[Rekk]

This needs more detail unless the proposal is exactly "remove double movement in _ from Trailblazer and replace it with nothing".

We had a pretty big discussion about possible replacements in Discord many months back; I'll see if I can paste it here.

It could be replaced by bonus XP for exploring forest/jungle and from exploring desert/tundra/snow.

This was not something considered that I think has merit.

 

[pineappledan]

Ignores penalty and double moves work differently, and I would miss that fine distinction. Iroquois' double move in jungle works slightly differently from Inca's ignore hills.

it would be very hard to replace the movement bonuses on the scout line without a) gimping the base unit even worse than it is, b) giving it combat bonuses that overlap even more with other unit lines, or c) giving it "pay XP to earn XP" promotions

 

[rkkn]

It could be replaced by bonus XP for exploring forest/jungle and from exploring desert/tundra/snow.

this strikes me as being rather pointless. I take the xp on exploring forest promotion so that I can more quickly reach another promotion that makes me gain xp?
it does eventually lead to getting the +sight promotion faster, but it makes the level ups before that really boring. We can reach the same end by replacing the two xp promotions with a single one that does something useful

In any case, I see no problem with the current bonus movement promotion. I don't think recon needs a mobility nerf, and extra movement in certain terrains is more interactive than a flat movement bonus.

There is an edge case or two where "double movement" is kinda odd, like when amphibious interacts with it, making crossing a river grant extra movement, but even there I think the interaction is nice

 

[ma_kuh]

I think scouts are already too forced into the scouting role. I know it's counter-intuitive, hear me out. I've been thinking about this and the skirmisher roles a lot lately, and the conclusion I've come to is that there's actually not enough overlap of roles. I think it's great that knights are good at taking out siege and archers, but I think there's a missing non-resource unit that fills a similar role; this should be the scout. Scouts are good at covering terrain other units can't cross efficiently, but there's no reason they should be outpacing horses in the desert. That said, I think it would go a long way if the (somewhat non-existant) knight/skirmisher scouting promotions included some ability to navigate terrain better, so that with enough focus either unit class can fill the role. I think giving scouts a combat role would allow us to do away with the super-gamey slipstream movement they get from the one promotion line anyone ever wants to go with them anyway.

 

[nekokon]

My suggestion would be giving ALL units +1 movement (base movement 3), take away ignore movement penalty as default promotion on scout, give trailblazer 1 ignore movement penalty in jg/forest/hill, and trailblazer 2 ignore movement penalty on all terrains. I've been player with base movement 3 mod mod and it greatly improves my experience with almost everything, and I don't know why it's not a base game thing.

 

[DeAnno]

I think you can't take away the additional net speed trailblazer gives because it makes the scout line way too bad as a whole, and also takes away the primary purpose of the tree. If you want to remove gamey terrain doubling, and also maybe make scouts a little less dead, I would suggest this:

Trailblazer 1: +1 Speed, +40% Withdraw chance
Trailblazer 2: +1 Speed, +40% Withdraw chance
Trailblazer 3: Ignore ZOC, Can enter mountains, Can embark without fishing

Survivalism becomes a stand-your-ground scout that can be a wall in a pinch or survive being trapped in and Trailblazer is an open ground scout for far exploration that might live a random ambush.

And then you probably don't want to put +1 speed on Scouting 3 anymore.

Scouting 3: +15% combat strength to all your adjacent units (EDIT: This bonus should ideally stack with the GG bonus but not stack with itself)

Using you want to position far seeing units just behind the dangerous part of the front or on the side of it, this increases the value of the scout line as a supporter in civ vs civ combat, something else to do with it besides pillager.

 

[Stalker0]

I think you could get away with removing double movement in favor of +1 speed/+1 speed. That gives you close equivalency without getting nuts once you do get into the scout +1 speed offerings.

Probably the biggest consideration for this is early scout unit pillaging. Now that the AI is allowed to do this again (I feel like that was turned off from them for a while), it quite quite powerful. One little scout can stall out all of your workers, as you just can't risk them out in the open. The scout unit can cut roads and take out early TR and be almost invincible due to its incredible mobility.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I'm fine with the current movement promotions for scouts. If any change to scouts is made, I see the whole unit line too weak in combat and never get more than 1 unless I have a UU or civ bonus to them.

 

[notaspambot]

This came up in the previous rework discussion, but my biggest concern with these sorts of proposals is the potential impact on early scouting. Scouting already feels pretty limited in the early game; whatever changes that might happen should try to compensate for one of scouting's biggest enablers (the double move promotions).

 

[pineappledan]

My issue with this proposal is that it fails to specify what it even wants to change. Double movement in all instances, even on non-scout units? Double moves is used in a lot of places, and proposing to just “remove all” is like playing Jenga with boxing gloves.

So now we’re left to speculate how this would affect the iroquois, if he also means half-move promotions, if he has any idea what would replace these bonuses instead. We all fill in the blanks with what might make the proposal palatable in our own heads, and pass it. Then when it comes time to implement it, none of us are happy.

 

[Recursive]

@ilteroi The scouting line already has "ignores terrain cost". Is your proposal to remove double movement entirely?

Please specify since you've provided two alternate proposals. Should be one per thread.

 

[ilteroi]

edited OP

 

[pineappledan]

Trailblazer 1: +1 Speed, +40% Withdraw chance
Trailblazer 2: +1 Speed, +40% Withdraw chance
Trailblazer 3: Ignore ZOC, Can enter mountains, Can embark without fishing

We're going to be right back here next version to take the withdraw chances out, because a big portion of the community hates withdraw chance.
In fact, one of the changes made last time the TB line was adjusted was removing a 60% withdraw chance from TB III.

I think the Counterproposal by @Anarcomu hits closer to the mark

 

[Tekamthi]

why should a unit ever be faster in jungle than on plains?

On pure thematic grounds, recall that the turns for these early units span like 20 years... At best the game ends with a month passing at a time (or is it less? I rarely get past atomic)

The abstract representation in vp is that the units can better sustain themselves via scavenging supplies in these terrains. Not that they can sprint faster on them for brief durations, as I think is the assumption underlying OP.

That said, I agree completely when it comes to the snow and desert bonus. That one should be scrapped.

I'd also lean more towards to adding promos for other thematically appropriate terrains and features, rather than removing them on forest and jungle. Maybe even making these mutually exclusive to cut down a little on the recon movement cheese -- shouldn't end up fast almost everywhere, though this may require that they get some other buff, as they're already not that common in most armies

 

[CppMaster]

The abstract representation in vp is that the units can better sustain themselves via scavenging supplies in these terrains. Not that they can sprint faster on them for brief durations, as I think is the assumption underlying OP.

That doesn't make sense, because any other unit is slower in jungle/forest than in plains.

 

[Tekamthi]

That doesn't make sense, because any other unit is slower in jungle/forest than in plains.

Any other unit is not a recon line unit, and thus has distinct strengths and weaknesses. For alternative VP example of a similar abstraction, consider the iroquois UA: nobody believes that iroquois could run faster in forests than plains, but there is a reason they were historically a woodland people, and not plains. This is where they were best adapted to life; whether that was agriculture, travel, etc.

 

[nekokon]

If you guys want changes someone should make a discussion thread outside and talk it out first. No proposal/counter proposal would get enough vote to pass if there're 5 options splitting the pool either way.