10% research - is it the only way?

[Skullsplitter]

I find gold in AA Emperor to be incredibly valuable. I produce warriors heavily from the beginning, then upgrade them right after I'm in Republic to go smash an AI.

In a different thread, people said my cavalier attitude towards losing swords (30 shields) by not going with barracks wasn't their style. But in my case, I'm losing 10 shields, 40 gold. Which is why gold is a big deal. And I don't lose them as often as you'd think, since I can count on several of them leveling up from barbs, and by the time some of the others have their first battle, the cats have softened up the defenders.

 

[dhokarena56]

Legions better than Immortals, really? I dunno. I'd probably think differently if Persia weren't so much better than Rome in terms of attributes.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Legions are pretty handy when the AI is using them, because it covers for their inept attack planning. Ditto samurai, 3MCs and baby bowmen. As a human player, I'd prefer immortals any day.

 

[AnthonyIII]

So I think I've understood this research thing much better now. It seems like emperor is the last level where it is any point of researching techs by yourself, if any. I've now started playing at demigod and there's very little difference between going 100% or 10%. In regent, monarch and to some degree, emperor, you can get away by researching a lot by yourself - but now I see this is more common sense than a strategy at the higher levels. I mean, research BW in 50 turns with OK profit or go 100% in 46 turns or what it was. I had just not realized the difference was so small when reading training games. I've now taken on the habit of many of you who posted in the thread by going 10% for most of the time, at least in the opening stage. Sometimes I research at max to get IW, for exampel.

 

[Puppeteer]

So I'm giving min research at Emperor a shot. In my TDG turnset it worked out fabulously as I got tech parity / all the first tier techs within the first 20 turns.

I started a solo game today and met my second civ just after they met each other and traded up. I just met a third. Everyone is up 4 techs on me, and one civ is up 5, Alphabet being the monopoly tech. I haven't been able to beg, steal or buy Alphabet to broker to the others. Should I try to buy some of the other tech in one-off deals or hope to hang on to my gold and manage a good two-fer trade later on? I'm afraid of falling hopelessly behind and having my gold demanded away from me.

In this game I am America in turn 26, with 26 turns into min Alphabet research. 128g, 7gpt if I zero the sliders, zero military because I went granary, settler first due to my starting terrain. (mixed tundra/grass, no BG, 3 forest furs, moved 1 tile N to get on the coast and get better future work tiles)

EDIT: I continued without trading a couple of turns, and China got Alphabet, too, I was able to buy it then (10g cheaper from China for some reason) and then get The Wheel (most expensive remaining tech) from Arabia for most of the rest of my gold plus Alpha. England just plopped a town in a previously scouted area, so if I'm lucky maybe I can reach her before the others do and get some more trading done. I'm not sure what position I would be in if I couldn't buy an early tech to resell before everyone got too far ahead of me. I'm still down 3 techs but now feel like I will have trading opportunities.

Screenshots in spoiler tag:

Spoiler :

(Yes, I realized the mine was a mistake as soon as it finished...I need to irrigate through to the cow, then mine the furs.)

 

[Puppeteer]

EDIT: I continued without trading a couple of turns, and China got Alphabet, too, I was able to buy it then (10g cheaper from China for some reason) and then get The Wheel (most expensive remaining tech) from Arabia for most of the rest of my gold plus Alpha. England just plopped a town in a previously scouted area, so if I'm lucky maybe I can reach her before the others do and get some more trading done. I'm not sure what position I would be in if I couldn't buy an early tech to resell before everyone got too far ahead of me. I'm still down 3 techs but now feel like I will have trading opportunities.

Now I'm in turn 44, and have since met England (no deals available) and Russia (no deals). I wasn't sure what to do to catch up; I thought I would try to buy BW and then mortgage the farm to whoever got IW and catch up brokering that, but BW is expensive to buy and I didn't manage it until this turn, but everybody already has IW. With at least 5 AI on the same continent trading with each other I expect to get beaten to Writing (35 more turns at min), so I'm not sure what to do except fall back on my old strategy of "research at max trailing the AI". But I will stay at minimum for now and see if anything occurs to me. I'm about to get curraghs out--a bit late because of early builds--but maybe I'll find a backwards AI to broker with.

EDIT: Ouch, next turn two civs got Writing. If I hadn't just bought BW I could have bought Writing, now I don't have gold + gpt to get it. Hmm, if I zero the sliders and put all citizens on 2c tiles I can get 12gpt and buy Writing. Okay, do so with Zulu, leaving me 12g and no gpt.

 

[Puppeteer]

Hmm, if I zero the sliders and put all citizens on 2c tiles I can get 12gpt and buy Writing. Okay, do so with Zulu, leaving me 12g and no gpt.

I'm starting to see how to work this I think. Buying BW was a mistake because it's expensive (Colossus not yet built plus a new unit, making it a premium tech), and buying it would only reveal IW, and I knew it was a fair chance that all the other civs might already know it, plus it reveals a resource and has a unit so would be difficult to buy outright, too.

I started to say I goofed trading for Wheel earlier, but I did think there was a fair chance England didn't know it yet, and it would have been good trade fodder (at the time I knew where England was but didn't yet have contact). But getting Wheel without WC didn't reveal any other tradeable techs. However if I bought CB I could broker Myst when it became available.

So, after mortgaging the empire to get Writing, what next? I want IW most of all, but it is the least useful trade. I know nobody has Math, so nobody could have Construction yet (plus it's too doggone expensive for now). However if I get WC then I may get broker options on HBR, and if I get CB I may get broker options on Myst. So even though IW is more valuable as a single tech, I'm better off getting CB and WC first and then seeing if HBR and Myst are out there to work into this trade session.

Trade Writing to England for WC, CB and 19g. (Couldn't afford IW in the same trade. No worries.)

Myst and HBR are both out there, and not all civs have both! Only two civs don't know writing now, China and Arabia. China knows HBR, Myst and IW while Arabia knows HBR and IW. So, Myst first: Writing to China for Myst straight-up because he has no gold. Now I'm up Writing on only Arabia but am up Myst on both Arabia and England. (Quickly check to see if anyone has Poly yet...nope.) Trade Writing to Arabia for HBR and 32g. (Oops, thought I traded him Myst, but I'm still up Myst on him so it must've been Writing.) That goof may have cost me, but I get IW from England for Myst, HBR and 24g.

Now Arabia is down Myst, but the rest of the known world is at tech parity. And I have 34g and no available gpt for 20 turns because of what I now see was a very bad BW buy the last turn.

I have a lux hooked up, am about to found city #3 and am starting to grow the capital, so I think I can manage the large gpt deal, but I'll be off of even min research for at least a few turns. I won't be paying unit support soon, although I do have a granary completing in 5 turns. Still think I can cover it with pop growth and the new city.

 

[AnthonyIII]

It sucks to get beaten to writing... If I do, this is when I go IW all the way and plan for a little war to steal all the AI's techs in peace negotiations. Most of the time it's enough to take two cities or three cities, depending on how early you can make/upgrade around 6-8 swordsmen. I see you have a bit of hills and mountains surrounding your two cities, might be some iron lying around! I'm not to worried of beeing behind so early anymore as I was before, because you can easily catch up and in the MA most of the AI's research seems to stall for some reason, at least in my games at emperor so far. I think it's because they're at war with eachother or with me! Or maybe at emperor 10% is more fitted to a war game, and max research fits the builder more? Then again, you can't really have a peaceful game in CIV3... Just now, the chinese took two of my cities even when they were polite and aggresion level were set at the lowest! Won't be much left of them in couple of hundred years time.

Maybe you could try to buy writing and the go max for philosophy and litterature? I've gotten philosophy first even when I was not first to writing. There could be hope... Also, what other civs are you up against and on what kind of map? The Zulus start with scouts and can pop a few techs from huts early and does China too? It also seems like you've started a bit isolated from the others, that's never optimal given the 10% research I would guess... In the TDG everyone was a bit closer and maybe that's why it was easier then. Anyway, since it's quite early in the game, I'm sure you'll pull it around soon!

EDIT: I wrote and posted this before I saw your last post. Sounds you're already beginning to turn the tables around!

 

[Puppeteer]

Maybe you could try to by writing and the go max for philosophy and litterature?

I think we cross-posted. For some reason it didn't occur to me that I could buy and still broker Writing if I was beaten to it. I panicked and bought BW intending to try to buy and broker IW. I had 15 turns into Writing, and there are no wonders or units in writing, so buying it before it got traded to everyone was a very decent possibility, probably easier than BW alone and certainly easier than BW & IW together, but somehow I didn't think of it.

I've certainly learned a lot in this game. Man, if I hadn't bought BW I'd still have plenty of gpt.

Still, I'm at tech parity in turn...45. Way better than I usually do.

Yeah, I think a min run at lit is next once I can afford 1gpt for research again. Mainly because I'm pretty sure I'll beat the AI to it...they don't care much to research lit. I'm hoping some suicide curraghs can find the backward civ or two. Surely they aren't keeping up with this 5-AI continent?

EDIT: No iron or horses in sight! Well, not near me, anyway. My first war will likely be to acquire iron, and actually I'm not convinced I can get that far in the first war!

EDIT 2: Shaka demands 20g of my 34g after I end turn 45. Hey, isn't he the one I'm paying 12gpt to? Hmm, tempting to tell him to shove it, but I'm not prepared for a war...his fast Impis will get here too soon. Cave.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Yeah, we cross-posted. This looks like my lessons in my first 10% game. Soon you'll make Shaka pay ! Too bad about no iron, though. Veteran archers and horsemen?

 

[Puppeteer]

I was down to the last turn of my 12gpt commitment to Shaka when C3C froze (wow, I haven't had that happen until now). I could load the last autosave, but it's time to get some sleep. There are 4 or 5 techs out there now, and I may have to pay another gpt set to get into the broker game. I got two tribute demands, so I don't have much gold in the bank right now. I guess things are going better than my usual play style, but I keep thinking how much better off I'd be if I hadn't blown 110g or 120g on BW.

On the other hand, I only missed one turn of min research. I've been gaining commerce more quickly than expected. I'm getting penned in, though. I'm going to have to fight my way into expansion with archers.

I had a scare where I suddenly had two English warriors in my territory next to an undefended city. I somehow missed them approaching. Luckily they were just passing through (either from a scouting mission or barb fight) and not coming to attack me.

Yeah, we cross-posted. This looks like my lessons in my first 10% game. Soon you'll make Shaka pay ! Too bad about no iron, though. Veteran archers and horsemen?

Archers. I see a couple of places I might get iron after a war or two, but I literally see no horses in the known world. The despot leader Lincoln is thinking his scientists are making up this fairy tale "horse" they keep talking about.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Look at it this way, I think you'll remember to buy writing the next time you miss it by a turn or so. And Lincoln will have his horses soon enough!

 

[Aabraxan]

What kind of map is this? If it's pan, you'll obviously have a harder time brokering.

When I do minimum Writing, and someone beats me to it, I look for ways to buy it and reclaim my investment. The problem is that if I buy it as a monopoly tech, it's going to be very expensive, and if I don't, then they've got the opportunity to sell it around. Frankly, whenever I do wind up buying the remaining beakers in Writing, I often wind up turning around and selling or trading it on the same turn, to prevent the AI from whom I buy it from having the opportunity to undermine my trade opportunities.

Also, even if I do minimum on Writing, I usually wind up cranking up the research for CoL or Philo and going full steam for that, just to try to pull off the slingshot.

 

[Puppeteer]

It's standard-size "continents", 5 billion, all other options middle choice.. I was very surprised to meet 5 AI on this landmass! I don't know if there's a land bridge or just a lot of people here.

My starting scout was successful in meeting people but got bogged down in lots of forest and wetlands and kept reversing direction after hitting coastlines, so he hasn't been effective in revealing the shape of the world. (I also diverted him recently to scope out the area around "my" iron.) Due to terrain early builds were granaries, settlers, a worker and a panic warrior or two when barbs showed up, so I think I still don't have a second land scout. (Have 3 or 4 curraghs launched, though.) This has been an unusual start for me in many respects.

 

[Aabraxan]

That's a lot of civs on one landmass. Obviously, the civs on your continent will be doing more trading among themselves. You may want to foment the occasional war between them just to preserve your own trading opportunities. Once you make contact with the other continent, though, you may find a lucrative trading partner or two overseas. (In my games, I'm always glad to see the Incas overseas, because they tend to be good customers.) If you sell a tech to one, though, be sure to sell it to the other, to pre-empt the first buyer from reselling to the second.

 

[Puppeteer]

After my 12gpt to Zulu ran out the other civs had mostly traded with each other, but one civ was down two techs and another was down one (to the other AI, not to me). Managed to buy Philo then trade for Math and MM. Now I'm down CoL to 3 civs and have 11gpt combined going to two different civs.

In 20 turns I'll hopefully have a trade route or two and a better economy to deal from. Or maybe I'll be ready for war by then. The tech pace sure is fast! It's turn 66 and there are 3 remaining required techs in the AA (well, 4 for me). I have 31 turns of Lit at min. I'm really unsure how Republic and first-tier MA techs are going to go for me. I'm usually self-researching Republic and trading it for first-tier techs, but I think Republic and MA techs will already be out there by the time I'm ready to trade again, and I think they'll be traded around on this continent before I can buy one. We'll see how it goes, but for now I think my hopes remain in finding the two remaining civs who hopefully don't have contact with these guys.

Perhaps more important than my tech situation is planning to war with archers before the AI gets Feudalism and pikemen. If I don't obtain iron before the enemy has pikes, I'll be fighting a war or two with longbows.

 

[Richie0]

i do 10% research (or thereabouts) when i'm at war due to unit costs, rushing, alliance buying etc

otherwise i'm up at 80%-90% early on, or later 50%-60% when i can reduce the slider a bit and still research in quickly without being crippled by expenses.

to me, research in 4 turns is perfect. 5-6 turns will do just as nicely.

 

[creamcheese]

i do 10% research (or thereabouts) when i'm at war due to unit costs, rushing, alliance buying etc

otherwise i'm up at 80%-90% early on, or later 50%-60% when i can reduce the slider a bit and still research in quickly without being crippled by expenses.

to me, research in 4 turns is perfect. 5-6 turns will do just as nicely.

What level are you playing on? If you can regularly do 4-turn research, you have probably mastered that level and could move up easily.

 

[shl7070]

I played Emperor enough games and saw no problem with self research at maximum. Even if the tech looks 40 turns to get it will usually come quicker as the empire grows, they try to extort my gold and sometimes I cave in, while in other I destroy them instead as they may think that having 3 warriors nearby is intimidating while their cities aren't cnnected by roads and 12 archers in one stack can destroy the whole empire starting from razing the capital.
I self research alphabet, writing and philo, get something good out of it like CoL or map making. Then research BW, IW ,CB, mysticism on their trail (usually it's 4-8 turns only, then buy other more expensive techs with CoL. If I make first to republic I can sell it to each civ for each different tech on the same turn and even the techs as republic is extremely valuable. Later I usually start to lead in tech.

 

[creamcheese]

Yes, sounds like you could move up a level without much difficulty.