1470 Revolution

[Provolution]

1470 Revolution

As we just conquered Cologne and rebellion will end in 3 turns time, I suggest we initiate a revolution in our civics in two directions:

1. Mercantilism (leaving decentralization)
2. Vassalage (leaving bureaucracy)


Mercantilism (from Decentralization)

The advantage is clear, 18 city specialists for free, for a total of 6 GPT.
That is 1 GPT for 3 specialists, and this simply has to be done.

Vassalage (from Bureaucracy)

The advantage is not as clear as with the other, here the price is 6 GPT more on the civics alone, and we can add the loss of the production and commerce bonus in NOTA. However, Vassalage is the best war Civic.

Bureaucracy (losses)

Gold lost from converted hammers (4 GPT)
Gold lost from Bureaucracy base gold bonus (9 GPT)

Vassalage (losses)

Civics increase (6 GPT)

Vassalage (gains)

16 GPT free unit upkeep)
2 XP per new produced unit


ANALYSIS

From a pure, beancounter GPT perspective, we can assume that we want a military that is 16 units bigger than the base population military. We were at 45 units before Cologne, and are now at around 40, which means 10 GPT upkeep (9 to be exact right now).

Population and Military Upkeep

For roughly 4 population points, we get a free unit upkeep, and we got about 120 population points, meaning 30 free upkeep. Since we are about to get 11 more population in the short term, roughly 130 population, and may with some tweaking get 140 population before the next war, we get 35 free units. Knowing that we need at least 18 units for garrisons, leaves us 17 free units (with stretched defenses) to cover wars on the Roman-German frontier.
Also, we need to count workers in this formula, as we need to increase these numbers as well.

My ideal military force with this set-up should be

34 free units (Population based) and 16 free units (Vassalage based).

We already got 10 heavily promoted units which would be better than vassalage trained troops. These would be our elite front units.

We also got another 10 obsolete but functional troops with some promotions, these are still useful in specialist maneuver roles (Chariots, Axemen/Spearmen).

We got a bulk Maceman army of another 10 units, which is our main assault infantry.

Finally we got the last 10 units, which are the present cannon-fodder and disposable units. We got some heavily outdated warriors and archers (4), which I would like to disband or sacrifice in battle, and we got some new production lines of troops that die right away, like our mediocre catapults, which more or less form the last 6 units (alongside some other poorer units).

We lost 7 units near Berlin and we lost 5 units near Cologne. We know that Longbowman with dual city garrisons are tough nuts to crack. If each German battle costs us 4X40 hammer catapults and some other units as well, that will net us more than 200 hammers on the average per battle, that is a Heroic Epic in hammers lost per battle. I think it is time to refine our war-production, apply Heroic Epic, Vassalage and skillful promotion and use of combined arms.

A lost battle, or a battle that requires us to stop per city for a longer while, will cost us dearly. Lost troops and lost promotions have an economic cost, not directly measured in GPT, but still a significant cost.

Heroic Epic will allow Riversight (which proved key in turning our deficit), to continue to do other things. Heroic Epic will contain the war production where the war is, and will let Vassalage do its job in producing the good units.

If we can reduce losses on the average by 2 units per battle, it will be more than worth it, even one unit per battle.

 

[dutchfire]

1470 Revolution

As we just conquered Cologne and rebellion will end in 3 turns time, I suggest we initiate a revolution in our civics in two directions:

1. Mercantilism (leaving decentralization)
2. Vassalage (leaving bureaucracy)


Mercantilism (from Decentralization)

The advantage is clear, 18 city specialists for free, for a total of 6 GPT.
That is 1 GPT for 3 specialists, and this simply has to be done.

Vassalage (from Bureaucracy)

The advantage is not as clear as with the other, here the price is 6 GPT more on the civics alone, and we can add the loss of the production and commerce bonus in NOTA. However, Vassalage is the best war Civic.

Bureaucracy (losses)

Gold lost from converted hammers (4 GPT)
Gold lost from Bureaucracy base gold bonus (9 GPT)

Vassalage (losses)

Civics increase (6 GPT)

Vassalage (gains)

16 GPT free unit upkeep)
2 XP per new produced unit


ANALYSIS

From a pure, beancounter GPT perspective, we can assume that we want a military that is 16 units bigger than the base population military. We were at 45 units before Cologne, and are now at around 40, which means 10 GPT upkeep (9 to be exact right now).

Population and Military Upkeep

For roughly 4 population points, we get a free unit upkeep, and we got about 120 population points, meaning 30 free upkeep. Since we are about to get 11 more population in the short term, roughly 130 population, and may with some tweaking get 140 population before the next war, we get 35 free units. Knowing that we need at least 18 units for garrisons, leaves us 17 free units (with stretched defenses) to cover wars on the Roman-German frontier.
Also, we need to count workers in this formula, as we need to increase these numbers as well.

My ideal military force with this set-up should be

34 free units (Population based) and 16 free units (Vassalage based).

We already got 10 heavily promoted units which would be better than vassalage trained troops. These would be our elite front units.

We also got another 10 obsolete but functional troops with some promotions, these are still useful in specialist maneuver roles (Chariots, Axemen/Spearmen).

We got a bulk Maceman army of another 10 units, which is our main assault infantry.

Finally we got the last 10 units, which are the present cannon-fodder and disposable units. We got some heavily outdated warriors and archers (4), which I would like to disband or sacrifice in battle, and we got some new production lines of troops that die right away, like our mediocre catapults, which more or less form the last 6 units (alongside some other poorer units).

We lost 7 units near Berlin and we lost 5 units near Cologne. We know that Longbowman with dual city garrisons are tough nuts to crack. If each German battle costs us 4X40 hammer catapults and some other units as well, that will net us more than 200 hammers on the average per battle, that is a Heroic Epic in hammers lost per battle. I think it is time to refine our war-production, apply Heroic Epic, Vassalage and skillful promotion and use of combined arms.

A lost battle, or a battle that requires us to stop per city for a longer while, will cost us dearly. Lost troops and lost promotions have an economic cost, not directly measured in GPT, but still a significant cost.

Heroic Epic will allow Riversight (which proved key in turning our deficit), to continue to do other things. Heroic Epic will contain the war production where the war is, and will let Vassalage do its job in producing the good units.

If we can reduce losses on the average by 2 units per battle, it will be more than worth it, even one unit per battle.

Vassalage losses:
1 turn of extra anarchy, about 200 beakers and 150 hammers
7/8 hammers/turn = 1 catapult every 5 turns
And you're of on the unit upkeep, it's only 0.82*16=13 gold/turn

We shouldn't disband our warriors, they are excellent for keeping in a city to make sure there's no "we demand military protection" unhappiness. Replacing them is totally useless, as 50% of our territory isn't going to see war for centuries.

Better promotions don't reduce losses that much at all actually, as City Garrison II longbows are still unbeatable by one units, but easy enough to crack with several units. (I think it would actually be a good idea to sacrifice a stronger unit like a maceman on the strongest defender before suiciding catapults.)

 

[Provolution]

Vassalage losses:
1 turn of extra anarchy, about 200 beakers and 150 hammers
7/8 hammers/turn = 1 catapult every 5 turns
And you're of on the unit upkeep, it's only 0.82*16=13 gold/turn

We shouldn't disband our warriors, they are excellent for keeping in a city to make sure there's no "we demand military protection" unhappiness. Replacing them is totally useless, as 50% of our territory isn't going to see war for centuries.

Better promotions don't reduce losses that much at all actually, as City Garrison II longbows are still unbeatable by one units, but easy enough to crack with several units. (I think it would actually be a good idea to sacrifice a stronger unit like a maceman on the strongest defender before suiciding catapults.)

About your calculations. One catapult every 5 turns you say. The problem is that you want a war on the cheap where we build our units slowly and give them no promotions. With your resistance to Heroic Epic very soon and your inclination to run a slow-rolling war just to keep NOTA high-producing, we may well see a very very long war. With a loss of 4 catapults on the average per city, and giving the enemy time to build new units and fortify, even collude with each other or new civs.

This is time wasted you see. 1 turn of Anarchy is not that much, but having a disruptive influence of mixing war and peace goals, that cost. With a slow-rolling war where we fit in 4 catapults, taking two cities 10 turns to produce. Of course building several low quality units slow is cheaper. But this also affects how long the war lasts. There we got war-weariness, opportunity cost for buildings and other variables not even mentioned here.
What do you want, bleed them slowly, or what?

I agree on the change of siege tactics, that we suicide a fresh, new maceman, and save the good ones for actually taking the city. We are to change into Collateral from now on, so we may well start up with a singular catapult, then a fresh maceman, and then clean the place up.

We can of course keep the warriors and archers as policemen, but they are not that good. You are right about that they are cheap garrisons. Better promotions do count, if you use your troops well and specialize units in the right fashion for various roles. However, if that is not a personal playing style, I cannot help it.

However, I may be willing to concede Vassalage, if the following details are accepted:

1. We produce enough of the units needed to win the war, swiftly
2. We pay the upkeep for the units needed to win the war, no whining
3. We research Literature and build Heroic Epic in Munich before Roman War
4. There is a widespread recognition that not having Vassalage, require stronger efforts on other fronts
5. Enough workers to connect roads like Cologne, Pisae-Riversight and similar neglected infrastructure
6. more barracks in the northern cities (Aggressive Trait)
7. We research Optics, getting Compass from the Germans
8. We conquer Stuttgart (raze?) and Essen (raze?) in order to shorten border
9. We build caravels for the Roman War and win all naval battles
10. I will begin a Catapult-New Maceman - Expert Maceman assault sequence

 

[Joe Harker]

My view, get mercantism, and convert the free specialists into merchants if possible, this will provide a lot of cash and a decnt amount of beakers (due to the fact we are running Representation)

 

[Provolution]

I think both sides agree on Mercantilism, it is the Bureaucracy part that we disagree on.

 

[Methos]

Bureaucracy (losses)

Gold lost from converted hammers (4 GPT)
Gold lost from Bureaucracy base gold bonus (9 GPT)

You're giving an unfair report on this. You're basing it entirely on the current build of wealth, rather than the civics full capabilities. I'm also unsure of the accuracy of the above. I recall switching Riversight off wealth for workers and the entire economy dropped approx. 12 /t. I also recall that putting NOTA on wealth was a big benefit to to our economy. If I'm remembering correctly, it allowed me to boost the slider up another notch.

I can't right now, but I need to post a more detailed report on what the losses would be by changing to Vassalage. To be perfectly honest, I will vote to keep Bureacracy.

 

[Provolution]

At least this vassalage/bureaucracy debate sheds more light on military needs, so even though it does not end up with Vassalage, it ends up with something better than before this debate.

 

[HUSch]

Provolution
You want also Heroic, but we make no decision about it; i've no decision seen, but you've postet before. It's all together in your article and opinion.
Get we with vassalage 6 or 8 XP in our military Towns. I've no save to look for myself.

I myself are uncertain, but prefer bureau in my games. Here i've not enough information.

 

[Provolution]

Barracks give 4 XP, Vassalage 2 Xp, 5 is needed for the first promotion.

 

[dutchfire]

My view, get mercantism, and convert the free specialists into merchants if possible, this will provide a lot of cash and a decnt amount of beakers (due to the fact we are running Representation)

Actually, I think it might be better to let the specialists be scientists and lower the science slider instead of lettting the specialists be merchants and running higher % science as we (will) have many gold multipliers (banks, grocers, markets) in our commerce cities.

 

[Provolution]

Knowing we will not begin the Statute of Liberty before 60 turns or so, means we can still run Vassalage for a concentrated time just to pump out a selection of good units, relevant to the wars.

 

[dutchfire]

Knowing we will not begin the Statute of Liberty before 60 turns or so, means we can still run Vassalage for a concentrated time just to pump out a selection of good units, relevant to the wars.

You're underestimating the cost of anarchy. That cost is steadily increasing every time we switch civics. At the moment, it's already 2 turns for 2 switches. And every turn lost isn't just one turn of research and production lost. It's also a turn of growth lost. Revolting for an extra turn will lead to getting Liberalism later, decreasing our chances to be first there, it will lead to later universities, later Democracy, later everything.

Even if Vassalage is as good as you suggest, it will easily take 50 turns before we even reach the break even point! And we won't be needing military civics that long, I think our military production for the wars should long be finished by then.

 

[Provolution]

I am arguing several cases here. You could try to prioritize the best of them:

1. Vassalage (Much better troops, 60 % better with right specialization for role)
2. Heroic Epic in either Munich or Berlin (Double production where the enemy is)
3. Engineering (Allowing troops to be built double as fast, this way, we can put Heroic Epic in Coppertown)
4. A long line from Riversight and Coppertown (Riversight could be a swell commercial city)

I hope you at least consider the options laid out here. The troops are as good as I suggest, since "Aggressive" trait, combined with Shock and Cover, then the third could be city raider - would be a perfect city taker.
At least we should consider Theology later.

 

[dutchfire]

I am arguing several cases here. You could try to prioritize the best of them:

1. Vassalage (Much better troops, 60 % better with right specialization for role)
2. Heroic Epic in either Munich or Berlin (Double production where the enemy is)
3. Engineering (Allowing troops to be built double as fast, this way, we can put Heroic Epic in Coppertown)
4. A long line from Riversight and Coppertown (Riversight could be a swell commercial city)

I hope you at least consider the options laid out here. The troops are as good as I suggest, since "Aggressive" trait, combined with Shock and Cover, then the third could be city raider - would be a perfect city taker.
At least we should consider Theology later.

One things, all these suggestions shift focus, research and resources from economic to military. I think that's extremely odd, as we've got superior troops, both in quality as in quantity, than our opponents. I think it should be possible to achieve all our military goals within a reasonable timespan without doing this. We don't need that much focus to beat Rome and Germany, we only need a few of our cities to put in a couple of military units in their build queue every turnchat.

 

[Provolution]

You think it is extremely odd.... ? I think it is extremely odd to waste several troops as cannon fodder. If these troops last longer, we can produce other things with the "military cities", you are flipping my argument there.

And for Engineering. Also workers can move double as fast in roading and improving our vast and neglected empire. You seem bent on rejecting every single proposal I come with.

I added point 4. as a test, to see if you would disagree with yourself, and you did. The reason you disagreed, is that I took credit for the existing solution. Point 4 is more or less your own solution. This proves you are not listening, just arguing.

 

[dutchfire]

You think it is extremely odd.... ? I think it is extremely odd to waste several troops as cannon fodder. If these troops last longer, we can produce other things with the "military cities", you are flipping my argument there.

I don't see how your plan is going to decrease the the amount of losses significantely. Enemy longbowmen with CG promotions will still need to be attacked by cannon fodder first. These troops will still lose most of the time.

And for Engineering. Also workers can move double as fast in roading and improving our vast and neglected empire.

We shouldn't be moving workers over long distances regularily anyway, as there's enough to do closer. If our workers are managed correctly, engineering will hardly improve ou workers capacity. It will increase it, indeed, however the research invested in Engineering can be used better on something like Education that can increase our research a lot more.

 

[Provolution]

We actually do have a Combat , City Raider 3, Khan's Gatebreaker, that has a good 84 % chance or so on a Longbowman City Garrison 2. This would in 4/5 of our cases reduce the risk for the second attacker, and save most of the catapults. When you were warlord, you let him garrison Pisae, not bring him to the front.

 

[dutchfire]

We actually do have a Combat , City Raider 3, Khan's Gatebreaker, that has a good 84 % chance or so on a Longbowman City Garrison 2. This would in 4/5 of our cases reduce the risk for the second attacker, and save most of the catapults. When you were warlord, you let him garrison Pisae, not bring him to the front.

This unit has 4 promotions, something you won't reach with just vassalage. Actually, the best way to reach these amounts of experience is first fighting some low odds battles and winning them, gaining tons of experience. Thus suiciding and hoping to survive

 

[Provolution]

Vassalage would make several of this high quality the norm, not the exception.

 

[dutchfire]

Actually it wouldn't, it would just give them their second/third promotion, nothing more.