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[member66170]

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[Duke van Frost]

You´re oh so true!

That is why I, for example, dislike the idea of Wonders unique to only one civ very very much.

If this idea should be implemented I´d like to see that at least some civs (for example grouped into good, evil, neutral) can race for each Wonder.

 

[woodelf]

Is it possible to have civs get bonuses when building buildings and Wonders ala stone and marble? Anyone can build the Pyramids, but if you have stone it goes twice as fast. Can the same be done for civs? Anyone can build X, but civ Y does it twice as fast.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Though I agree we shouldn't carve everything into stone. It would REALLY bother me seeing Orcs building large Museums and Universities. What about diversity then? We can simply stop modding and just put some new models in to have a bit fantasy flavor and that's it. Look at FFH. Version one is pretty generic. Every civ has quite similar chances and it's very well balanced. FFH2 makes a difference to this. You can't play every civ towards every kind of victory.(They have races which destroy every city they conquer by trait) so is this less fun then? I think the contrary. WH is and allways was more fun with maps/scenarios than without. We should design the mod the way WH history simulation is possible. And I mean possible only

Btw I have lot of ideas how we could change gameplay to open choices. I.e. the elves. The elves could start as generic civs and depending on the magictechs or gods they discover they could switch to Darkelves, Highelves, Woodelves within the game and then stick to the path chosen. That'll be an awesome feature adding to both freedom of choice AND authentic WH history.
Dwarfs same thing. Start of as generic Dwarfs but possibility of turning into chaos or sticking to Dwarf culture.
Something like that I already posted months ago in the old thread. There it was human civ becoming chaos civ etc. pp.
But we need a lot of programming for it. So this is pretty much future stuff. We don't even have the basics in! Speaking of that what's the progress?

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Another add. Rhye wrote a revolutionary code that enable Players to switch civs once during gameplay, civilizations are generating and degenerating as it is reflected in real history. That gameexperience was the best I had since months!
Highly recommend this one.
Now what about WH?
Why not go for something similar and yet quite diverse in WH. The above mentioned elves could break apart into the three elvish poeple we know of by event. Ah well I'm to lazy now to explain everything. Play Rhye's mod and see for yourself. One of the best features is the system what civs delare war on the others. Civs there very likly will declare resonable wars most of the time. Vanilla AI doesn't really care wether it would get an advantage conquring you. In Rhyes they are forced by python or sdk don't know for sure to concentrate on warfare that can actually result in making a bigger empire. And indeed it's very hard there to win wars against the AI cause it will behave almost like a human player!

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Orcs writing poems is definitly a noGo for me! I won't work on a mod that feature that and I won't play it since I want to play orcs as orcs and not ugly elves!!!

Edit: If orcs should be peaceful why bothering to give them peaceweariness???

 

[Duke van Frost]

One of the best features is the system what civs delare war on the others. Civs there very likly will declare resonable wars most of the time. Vanilla AI doesn't really care wether it would get an advantage conquring you. In Rhyes they are forced by python or sdk don't know for sure to concentrate on warfare that can actually result in making a bigger empire. And indeed it's very hard there to win wars against the AI cause it will behave almost like a human player!

That sounds really good! I always hated the way the AI declared War in Vanilla cIV. We should dig into that.

I´m not quite sure about the thing with civs breaking apart, have to think about that.

To get back to the wonders, is it possible to have certain civs get MORE benefits from a Wonder instead of giving it production bonuses? That way the Player would be really encouraged to build certain Wonders.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Still not sure where you want to go with that. We could let all civs build Nagashs pyramid but this would have to mean then the civs that builds it would have to become undead. Why should Archaon build a Shrine of the Holy Grail I ask you?
I still think some wonders should be unique. There are still plenty of wonders left for racing. And having some wonders related to alignment shouldn't be hard to do also. This is a simple xml task

 

[Duke van Frost]

That´s not where I want to go, But Nagashs Black pyramid could be raced for by every "evil" civ IMO, same goes for the Shrine of the Holy Grail, but only by the Human civs for example.

I want to say: let´s not make Wonders unique to one civ, but maybe to groups that seem reasonable (can be different groups for each wonder) so we can at least have some racing for EVERY Wonder.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Makes no sense to me. The holy Grail is what the Bretonnian culture is about. Nagashs pyramid is essential for Khemri since without that that civ would never have turned undead. Why bothering that much about wonder racing anyway? Imo the civs should be so much bothered by war that they can be happy to be able to build a granary from time to time
But seriosly there are enough wonders to race for in WH-world. All human european civs could race for Knightly orders, the magic colleges(I think each single one should be a wonder on it's own).
Highelves and Woodelves can race for elven spec wonders.
Darkelves, Chaos can race for Khorne related wonders etc.pp.
And on top of that we'll have generic wonders for all of them(like the Boodweiser Blood Bowl Arena). So what's the problem with 1 or 2 unique wonders for every civ?

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Well if you program the AI to never research for Writing if it's orcish I don't have a problem with that. Until then I prefer simply to disable that tech for them. Compromise?

 

[Duke van Frost]

Why bothering that much about wonder racing anyway? Imo the civs should be so much bothered by war that they can be happy to be able to build a granary from time to time

Because I just love the wonder-race , but that´s only my two cents.

Well, If we get enough Wonders into the mod, I don´t have a problem with every civ having the SAME number of wonders Unique to them, groupspecific wonders and generic wonders (to be true I really love the idea of having group specific wonders)

But We should have at least some wonders with nearly the same effects for different groups to build, even if the Groups sometimes overlap (for example Al-Anons Garden for Desert civs and The Floating Gardens of Lost Xholankha for New Worlders).
That´s because we should have different groups for each group specific wonders (One time the Darkelves are in the "Elves Group" one time they are in the "Evil Group" - if that makes sense to you)

EDIT: I´ll open a discussion about this topic in the Wonders and Buildings thread after the public release of the next version - I think we have other things to concentrate on for now.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

@Duke
Sure it depends allways on the wonder which civ it could have a meaning for.

@Olleus
Because there are wonders like the Knightly orders which would sort of fit for Bretonnia, Estalia, Empire, Tilea since all this cultures have an idea of chivalry. But Knights of the White Wolf fighting for the good of Gork and Mork is just weird. The game might have more freedom but the price is a huge loss of flavor. And I really mean HUGE here.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

@Olleus
Another point is. All civs should have certain advanteges and disadvanteges which we will have to balance somehow. But the more generic stuff dominates the game the more we loose the specific flavor of the single civs.
If an Orcplayer can build Knights Panther because he can build the Knightly order of the Panther wonder(which should be prereq for this) or similar things the civ wouldn't suffer from it's handicaps anymore and easily get overpowered.
WH-tabletop lives from the diversity of the armys which makes some tactics useful and others useless. Some handycaps can be overcome by using mercenaries or ally troops but only to a limited effect. I think we should also stick to that concept. It wouldn't make fun playing against someone who would put the best troops every army has together and leave out the weak ones. No need for strategy anymore since you simply can't win. You again loose flavor and it would look quite stupid on the table btw. Same with civ.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

That's already more to my liking. But I'm still not sure if this'll work for all civs. For Chaos maybe since they are a mockery of the Old World Human Culture. But I see no equivalent to a Knightly Order with the Orcs or Skaven i.e. And I want to see ALL the Models we make in the game

But other than with Knightly orders this idea would indeed work with Vault's Smithy i.e. since many cultures can have something like a Great Smithy and instead of making it a small wonder for every civ we could go this way then

 

[Mr. Do]

I do like this thread and the ideas presented, it is exactly how the mod should be if the possibilities are there

For example with Elves, I'd very much like it if there could be up to three Elf civs per game, and there could be three techs available, one for each of the three types of elf, and each civ gets one path to research the technology, whoever gets there first becomes that type of elf and the other paths are closed off. Start all in the forests? Go for the Wood Elf tech then!

There is the issue as well of how much freedom there should be... orcversities? Well actually 1000's of years before the "present day" Warhammer world, goblins had an advanced civilisation, with such learning centres across their lands. Though they all got destroyed and goblins generally became slaves to the orcs, and that was that. I think there should be elements of guidance from the designers to the players, for example Orcs and Goblins might have some units only available in a warmongering civic, but if the player or AI really wants, they can become a more peaceful variant and build those goblin universities after all...

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Goblins had an advanced civilization?! Great that's totally new for me. Yes we should find a balance between design guiding the player and freedom. However this will take a long time programming all this code so for now I'll stick to disabling some techs. But on the long run if we can make it more free and at the same time preserve the WH flavor of the game I would gladly allow the player to build universities for the future Goblin civ but only if we can make the AI not to force it by itself. Orcs on the other hand are simply to stupid and I think no university could change that.

 

[DutchJunkie]

Mr. Do .. that idea is simply AWESOME! The only problem is the leader .. or is it possible get the apropriate leader at a later time in the game?

The Goblin civilisation is new to me too, but it's certainly possible. Look at the Giants. They were a noble people that lived atop the mountains. Now they are stupid luggish brutes that live as mercenaries to eat smaller beings.

and Ploepelpengel .. i'm on your side in the discussion .. some races shouldn't be doing certain things .. but you can easily overcome that. Simply make the university a Shaman's Market, Shaman Gathering or something. Give it the same benefits, and voila ..

I think i'm too late for the discussion so i'll keep it short .. I think there can be race-unique wonders (grail for Brettonia), certain-race-unique wonders (all Khorne followers for example) and 'normal' wonders. Just a small amount, 1 or 2 per race and only certain-race-unique if we have good fluff.

 

[Duke van Frost]

and Ploepelpengel .. i'm on your side in the discussion .. some races shouldn't be doing certain things .. but you can easily overcome that. Simply make the university a Shaman's Market, Shaman Gathering or something. Give it the same benefits, and voila ..

I think i'm too late for the discussion so i'll keep it short .. I think there can be race-unique wonders (grail for Brettonia), certain-race-unique wonders (all Khorne followers for example) and 'normal' wonders. Just a small amount, 1 or 2 per race and only certain-race-unique if we have good fluff.

Right and right, I totally agrre with you and your points DJ (Shaman Gathering or whatever it should be called is a nice name for the Universities of the Whaagh! and give a good WH gfeeling to it)

I have to state that I´m generally against changing civs during the game or becoming another civ. I´d like to have all civ as they are from the beginning not going from generic elves to Dark Elves etc. We should leave such things for Rhye to do in his mod and should not try to implement every good idea that is out there on the forums into our mod, but instead try to give it a good feeling and I think I would get it more with civs staying what they are, for a fantasy theme.

Scenarios with such things can still be done, but I really don´t like it for the "vanilla" WH FB mod.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Keep in mind the elves in the ancient era ARE generic already. They just have different hair color mostly that's all. Also this is no idea of Rhye but my own. In Rhyes mod you switch civs not change them neither in appearance nor gameplay. And as I said with chaos I had the idea long ago in the old thread where I didn't even know of Rhyes catapult or lets say recognized it.
This would indeed be a feature totally unique to our mod! I just mentioned Rhyes mod because it gives the closest experience to what I thought of up to now.

Btw: not all civs would act like that. But you were asking for more freedom and heres an interesting way to get it!

But I also could imagine humans starting of as simple Barbs and later founding the Empire i.e. endless possibilities here.