1860s Era Rifled Artillery

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Should the 1860s Era Rifled Artillery appeared in game at all? these new artillery exists both as muzzle loaders and breech loaders, and different models named after different inventors requires their respective conical projectiles that made to ride the rifling grooves. Also capable of shooting shells but not canisters. This new cannon exists both as fieldgun variants, and as siege / naval guns (with the looks of soda bottle)

In civ 5. There's ACW scenario that featured Rifled Cannon which were either upgradeable from smoothbore 'Napoleon' gun howitzer.

For siege variants. did 'Artillery' also represented late-industrial era rifled siege cannon too?
Siege Rifle in action.jpg

Siege Rifle in action2.jpg

Both of these guns (Actually Parrot Gun) came from a unit set downloadable in CivFanatics. ones in the lower versions were modified versions with crews removed in favor of Civ6 field crews. no doubt it came from the aforemented ACW scenario. in this mod i've made it as a siege choice, in truth what are classes this Parrot Gun should belong to? ranged (as per fieldcannons) or siege? from what i've saw now it should be ranged and the siege variants should be about as big as Civ6 Bombard. your thoughs on this?
 
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I am surprised they didn't do the civ5 route of putting the field cannon/rifled cannon type unit as the evolution of the siege line, and the primary unit to use in the field to "soften up" foes, and then track crossbowmen to the gatling gun->machine gun line.

While rifled cannons were used against fortifications, they were ideal for smashing down big brick or stone walls. Less useful against an earthwork.
However, the other siege artillery used in the era was the mortar or howitzer- these guns could launch explosive shells over fortifications and smash whatever was inside. If you look at various ACW sieges, they usually brought both parrott guns and siege mortars. Although the original parrott rifled cannons were field artillery.

I would lean that they would be industrial era siege unit simply because we have field cannons, and there's a big gap between bombards and artillery. Such a unit would be best placed as 65:c5rangedstrength:-70:c5rangedstrength: bombard strength and 53-55:c5strength: melee strength, and cost ~ 380:c5production: and 20 niter.
 
I am surprised they didn't do the civ5 route of putting the field cannon/rifled cannon type unit as the evolution of the siege line, and the primary unit to use in the field to "soften up" foes, and then track crossbowmen to the gatling gun->machine gun line.

While rifled cannons were used against fortifications, they were ideal for smashing down big brick or stone walls. Less useful against an earthwork.
However, the other siege artillery used in the era was the mortar or howitzer- these guns could launch explosive shells over fortifications and smash whatever was inside. If you look at various ACW sieges, they usually brought both parrott guns and siege mortars. Although the original parrott rifled cannons were field artillery.

I would lean that they would be industrial era siege unit simply because we have field cannons, and there's a big gap between bombards and artillery. Such a unit would be best placed as 65:c5rangedstrength:-70:c5rangedstrength: bombard strength and 53-55:c5strength: melee strength, and cost ~ 380:c5production: and 20 niter.

Let's be specific about ur subject. "Parrott" simply meant a cast or wrought iron rifled gun with the breech strengthened by a separate reinforcing band attached while hot and shrink-cooled into place. They came in sizes from 10-lber, the most common 'field piece', up to 300 lber (10" bore) the largest 'siege piece'. The 3" Ordinance Rifle was the equivalent of the 10" Parrott and much more common.

All of these were muzzle-loading guns. Effective breechloading guns arrived by 1870 CE with the Krupp cast steel guns, but only for Field Guns. For the larger siege pieces there wasn't an effective breech mechanism that wouldn't 'blow out' after a few shots until the deBang system of the late 1880s.

Rifled pieces with percussion-cap-fuzed explosive shells were a decent 'Upgrade' from previous smooth bore artillery: the rifling about doubled the effective range (from about 1000 meters to 2000 meters or more) and using elongated shells instead of round solid shot was a huge improvement on destructive power. The new shells were also much heavier than their equivalent round shot, so that the heaviest field piece went from a 12-lber smoothbore to the 20 lber Parrott Rifle and siege pieces could fire up to 300 lb shells compared to 40 lb 18th century howitzers or 24 lber smooth bore cannon.

My only problem with all of this is that all the combined improvements started in about 1850 and ended in 1900 - 50 years between the start of rifled pieces in field service to the abandonment of all the older rigid carriage guns for weapons with some kind of recoil mechanism. That dramatically changed everything, because it kept the gun essentially stationary while it fired repeatedly, so it could fire accurately at a target the gunners could not see, the biggest revolution in fire support since gunpowder.

As an example, the 3" (76mm) Ordinance Rifle fired a 10 lb shell to 2000 meters, and could be fired about 2 - 3 times a minute by a well-trained crew.
The French M1897 75mm field cannon with a recoil mechanism could fire a 17 lb shell out to 7000 meters and a good crew could fire up to 20 times a minute., and it could fire at targets the gunners couldn't even see if they had an observer who could see the target and use one of the new telephones to tell the gunners where the target was. Revolutionary.
 
Let's be specific about ur subject.
I should have called in the forum heavy artillery :lol: before spouting off weak info... Just wanted to mention to OP that mortars also existed at the time, and suggest proper stats for game balance.
the biggest revolution in fire support since gunpowder
God, I love artillery.
 
"God fights on the side with the best artillery"
- Napoleon I

"The nimble gunner
With linstock now the devilish cannon touches,
And all goes down before him."
- Shakespeare, King Henry V, Act III

"Don't forget your great guns, which are the most respectable arguments of the rights of kings".
- Frederick the Great

"Ultima Ratio Regis"
(The Final Argument of Kings)
- Motto cast into the breech of every cannon made for Louis XIV
- and for Frederick the Great
 
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1.
"Ultima Regio Regis"
(The Final Argument of Kings)
- Motto cast into the breech of every cannon made for Louis XIV
- and for Frederick the Great


And who wrote this in the first place?

2.
Let's be specific about ur subject. "Parrott" simply meant a cast or wrought iron rifled gun with the breech strengthened by a separate reinforcing band attached while hot and shrink-cooled into place. They came in sizes from 10-lber, the most common 'field piece', up to 300 lber (10" bore) the largest 'siege piece'. The 3" Ordinance Rifle was the equivalent of the 10" Parrott and much more common.

All of these were muzzle-loading guns. Effective breechloading guns arrived by 1870 CE with the Krupp cast steel guns, but only for Field Guns. For the larger siege pieces there wasn't an effective breech mechanism that wouldn't 'blow out' after a few shots until the deBang system of the late 1880s.

Rifled pieces with percussion-cap-fuzed explosive shells were a decent 'Upgrade' from previous smooth bore artillery: the rifling about doubled the effective range (from about 1000 meters to 2000 meters or more) and using elongated shells instead of round solid shot was a huge improvement on destructive power. The new shells were also much heavier than their equivalent round shot, so that the heaviest field piece went from a 12-lber smoothbore to the 20 lber Parrott Rifle and siege pieces could fire up to 300 lb shells compared to 40 lb 18th century howitzers or 24 lber smooth bore cannon.

My only problem with all of this is that all the combined improvements started in about 1850 and ended in 1900 - 50 years between the start of rifled pieces in field service to the abandonment of all the older rigid carriage guns for weapons with some kind of recoil mechanism. That dramatically changed everything, because it kept the gun essentially stationary while it fired repeatedly, so it could fire accurately at a target the gunners could not see, the biggest revolution in fire support since gunpowder.

As an example, the 3" (76mm) Ordinance Rifle fired a 10 lb shell to 2000 meters, and could be fired about 2 - 3 times a minute by a well-trained crew.
The French M1897 75mm field cannon with a recoil mechanism could fire a 17 lb shell out to 7000 meters and a good crew could fire up to 20 times a minute., and it could fire at targets the gunners couldn't even see if they had an observer who could see the target and use one of the new telephones to tell the gunners where the target was. Revolutionary.

Should this make rifled cannons a separate units or is it effectively 'artillery'?
 
1.


And who wrote this in the first place?

Ultima Ratio Regum is the modern motto of the Swedish Artillery Regiment, so it may date back to when the Swedes militarized their artillery in 1623 CE. Lous XIV started putting it on his cannon sometime in the 1680s, and Frederick the Great picked it up by 1740 CE. It was still being used until at least 1775, because there is a Prussian 6-lber cannon with the motto on it on display at the Artillery Museum at Fort Sill, Oklahoma - somehow it found its way into the American Army during the revolution!

Should this make rifled cannons a separate units or is it effectively 'artillery'?

No. The characteristics in range and rate of fire between the modern artillery with effective recoil mechanism and the earlier, direct fire rifled black powder artillery are too great.

On the other hand, the advances in weight of shot, shell-firing capability, and range over the earlier smoothbore artillery of the 18th century (Civ VI's "Field Cannon") are also very great, so it would make a useful 'Upgrade' from that, coming in at about the late Industrial Era.
Dates are:
Field Cannon with trunnions and trailed carriage, first depicted 1461 CE.
Rifled Cannon: developed almost simultaneously by Armstrong, Cavelli, Wahrendorf in 1846 - 1854 CE.
Modern Artillery: famous French '75' (76.2mm) cannon of 1897 CE, followed by 1902 CE by Russian, German, and British similar guns

For a Siege Unit, I've pointed out before that the Howitzer was invented (by the Swedes) in 1690 CE strictly as a 'anti-city' piece to lob black powder explosive shells into the city and its defenses. That would make a good Siege unit to add between the Bombard (approximately 1400 CE: 1375 CE first known use) and the Artillery (1900 CE, approximately, 1905 CE at Port Arthur first use with Forward Observers)
 
^
1. Did Frederick II actually sent his troops to America to join up with his military advisor sent to help Washington to create his Continental Army there (And is this also affected Early American military uniforms to have Prussian appearances?)?
2. Personally Bombard should be 'Late Medieval' siege choice. with this... either Mortar or Obusier (Are both weapons the same thing? Mortars didn't use wheeled carriage to move around but had to be manhandled onto either wagons or rafts (Depending on transport conviniency) or elephants (if applicable) or pack horses or asses or mules (in case of Coehoorns).
3. Then if 'Siege Rifle' (did they call rifled siege cannons this way?) deserves the place as a separate unit to exists with rifling and comes before Artillery. then i'd say, in Vanilla and RF rule (mod potential, and i've yet to decide the proper design since this Parrot looks more like a field gun rather than siege gun) this weapon needs Iron to make. right? What do you think of James rifle cannon upgrades?
 
^
1. Did Frederick II actually sent his troops to America to join up with his military advisor sent to help Washington to create his Continental Army there (And is this also affected Early American military uniforms to have Prussian appearances?)?

Wrong on both counts. First, because the famous "von Steuben" who wrote the first US Army drill manual and trained Washington's troops was something of a Con Man: he wasn't a general, only a Captain in the Prussian Army, and he was neither a Baron nor even a nobleman - he added the 'von' to his name himself. Frederick didn't prove of rebellions, but he also didn't approve of the British hiring mercenaries all over Germany (not just from Hessia) and driving up the price of his own mercenary hires, so he taxed the movement of British mercenaries through his provinces in Germany as if they were cattle - which made him more money, cost the British a bit more, and showed his opinion of the British practices. No Prussian military units were ever sent to America, not was it contemplated, unless the British thought they could hire Prussian units - not an unlikely idea, since the British and Dutch had 'hired' most of the Prussian Army back in 1702 - 1714 during the War of the Spanish Succession. BUT since Prussia was not on particularly good terms with any of its neighbors having just fought France, Austria, and Russia in the Seven Year's War, Frederick was not about to let any of his troops go adventuring in North America.
The American uniforms did not particularly look like Prussian uniforms - they looked like everybody in Europe's uniforms, and everybody in Europe was copying elements of the Prussian 'style' because the Prussian Army was considered, man for man, one of the best in Europe. The Americans got old French Army uniforms, bought old uniforms elsewhere, and when they made their own dyed them whatever color was handy and Cheap. That meant that the Connecticut militia were in brown coats, using cheap vegetable dyes, while Virginia and Carolina troops were in blue, because Indigo Blue dye plants were the first major cash export crop out of the Carolinas - it was readily available, even if to the untrained eye it made them look like the other major dark-blue coated army in Europe - the Prussians.

2. Personally Bombard should be 'Late Medieval' siege choice. with this... either Mortar or Obusier (Are both weapons the same thing? Mortars didn't use wheeled carriage to move around but had to be manhandled onto either wagons or rafts (Depending on transport conviniency) or elephants (if applicable) or pack horses or asses or mules (in case of Coehoorns).

Obusier is French for 'Howitzer'.
Mortars in the west first show up at the Siege of Constantinople in 1453 CE (the Korean Wan'gu or "gourd-shaped mortar" is first mentioned about 1407 CE, so there are earlier Unique Mortars in Korea), so Mortar is really a Renaissance weapon, and pretty strictly a Siege weapon until after the howitzer became popular in the 18th century, when the howitzer began to take over the mortar's function - had the same ability to 'lob' shot over obstacles and walls, but longer range and better mobility. The US Civil War (1861 - 65 CE) was about the last major use of siege mortars, by 1905 CE in the Russo-Japanese War heavy howitzers were used in the same situations (Siege of Port Arthur)
You have to be careful here, because the only difference between a siege mortar and a siege howitzer is that the mortars generally were not on wheeled carriages, and technically, they have shorter barrels than a 'true' howitzer. That means you had 'mortars' in WWI and even WWII in the 20th century on wheeled carriages that are actually Howitzers in disguise: The German army in both wars, for instance, used a 21cm Morser that was actually a big howitzer.

3. Then if 'Siege Rifle' (did they call rifled siege cannons this way?) deserves the place as a separate unit to exists with rifling and comes before Artillery. then i'd say, in Vanilla and RF rule (mod potential, and i've yet to decide the proper design since this Parrot looks more like a field gun rather than siege gun) this weapon needs Iron to make. right? What do you think of James rifle cannon upgrades?

They used the term Siege Artillery for any guns considered too heavy to maneuver with the infantry (or cavalry). So, for instance, Parrott were made in 10 and 20 lb sized that were Field Artillery, and 100, 200, and even 300 lb that were Siege Artillery (and also some 'in between' weights that were Naval artillery) - all sizes refer to the weight of shot fired: the 300 lber was a 10" cannon or 253mm by modern measurement.

Parrotts, like the more popular 3" Ordinance Rifle (US Army) were made from Iron, as was the 1861 Krupp cast steel rifled guns, which were muzzle-loaders but so popular they were sold to not only the Prussia/German armies, but also the Ottomans, Austrians, and Russians in the 1860s. Between 1859 and 1866 Krupp had developed a breechloading system (also used by the French) that had an effective gas seal (but was not particularly effective for heavy guns) so in 1870 CE the FrancoPrussian War was fought by the Prussian/German Army entirely with rifled breechloading 75mm and 87mm Krupp guns.

The James system was one of many 'dead-ends' in the development of rifled, breechloading, quick firing field artillery in the 19th century. It put rifling grooves into the side of the cast iron shell to 'engage' the rifling in the barrel. This meant it cost more to make each shell, but also that the harder cast iron wore down the bronze barrels so fast it turned it into, effectively, a smooth bore in a short time. James system was tried by both the Union and Confederate armies in the US Civil War, and by 1862 (less than 2 years!) both sides were phasing them out as simply unusable for any length of time. They fall into the same category as the early breechloaders, most of which had serious gas leaks, or 'odd' rifling systems like the Whitworth or Armstrong guns, none of which lasted long.
 
Wrong on both counts. First, because the famous "von Steuben" who wrote the first US Army drill manual and trained Washington's troops was something of a Con Man: he wasn't a general, only a Captain in the Prussian Army, and he was neither a Baron nor even a nobleman - he added the 'von' to his name himself. Frederick didn't prove of rebellions, but he also didn't approve of the British hiring mercenaries all over Germany (not just from Hessia) and driving up the price of his own mercenary hires, so he taxed the movement of British mercenaries through his provinces in Germany as if they were cattle - which made him more money, cost the British a bit more, and showed his opinion of the British practices. No Prussian military units were ever sent to America, not was it contemplated, unless the British thought they could hire Prussian units - not an unlikely idea, since the British and Dutch had 'hired' most of the Prussian Army back in 1702 - 1714 during the War of the Spanish Succession. BUT since Prussia was not on particularly good terms with any of its neighbors having just fought France, Austria, and Russia in the Seven Year's War, Frederick was not about to let any of his troops go adventuring in North America.
The American uniforms did not particularly look like Prussian uniforms - they looked like everybody in Europe's uniforms, and everybody in Europe was copying elements of the Prussian 'style' because the Prussian Army was considered, man for man, one of the best in Europe. The Americans got old French Army uniforms, bought old uniforms elsewhere, and when they made their own dyed them whatever color was handy and Cheap. That meant that the Connecticut militia were in brown coats, using cheap vegetable dyes, while Virginia and Carolina troops were in blue, because Indigo Blue dye plants were the first major cash export crop out of the Carolinas - it was readily available, even if to the untrained eye it made them look like the other major dark-blue coated army in Europe - the Prussians.

.

What are RGB color codes for Indigo Blue American uses? Is it the same as French and Portugese?
And what are Bourbon-ear French units that wears blue? In addition to Musketeers and Garde Francaisse?
 
What are RGB color codes for Indigo Blue American uses? Is it the same as French and Portugese?
And what are Bourbon-ear French units that wears blue? In addition to Musketeers and Garde Francaisse?

At this point it's not possible to be that precise. Virtually everybody in Europe wearing blue used Indigo dye after about 1680 CE except the Prussians, who had to import Indigo (their territory is too far north to grow the plant) and rather than pay the price, opted for the new 'artificial' color manufactured using an iron/cyanide salts chemical mix, called Prussian Blue.

The problem is that the only 'accurate' descriptions of any of the blue colors are strictly verbal: Royal Blue, Turkey Blue, Parisian Blue, Sky Blue, Cornflower Blue, and Indigo dye has a peculiar property: the more times you dip the cloth in the dye, the darker it gets. Therefore, any indigo blue can vary even within the same dye batch, let alone when an entirely new batch of the dye is boiled up. The surviving uniforms in museums cannot be trusted either, because all the 'natural' dyes fade and weather just from light, let alone the wear and tear of campaigning (try taking a flash camera into the Museum d'la Armee, which is full of old French uniforms, and you will be escorted swiftly and not too gently back out again by the guards!)

The only thing to be said for certain is that Royal Blue was always a dark blue, because it used a lot more dye (one source said up to 42 dippings of the cloth into the dye), while Turkey Blue was much lighter, because the French term is where we get 'turquoise' from in English - a light medium blue. Cornflower Blue was even lighter than 'sky blue' - it's what the Bavarian blue uniforms became after a century of getting cheaper and cheaper with the dye: by the end of the 18th century they were only dipping the cloth a few times, and the resulting blue is really pale compared to the beginning of the century, when the Bavarians were in a medium blue very close to the modern Bavarian Blue in their flag.

You can't really talk about reliable RGB designations for any of the colors until after the 1850s, when the artificial chemical aniline dyes became available, allowing a precise chemical composition to be determined for each dye. Before that, any color is at the mercy of the variations in the plant itself, the precision of the dye workers, and the subsequent storage of the cloth both before and after it is made into a uniform. The only guaranteed 'uniform color' was White, which is why both the Austrian and French armies had adopted it for the majority of their uniforms by the 1780s.
 
1. Then again the French Revolutionary government switched to Blue, did the revoluitonalry sets a blue dyeing standards? how many 'dips' has to be take and how many dyes, proportions per water ... etc. particularly with Revolutionary set up the Metric system along with others to dissociate themselves with the Old Regime?
2. So that's why in default Units.Artdefs there were Legion tints that's no longer used by Legionairy but instead use Redcoat Armor (two Madder Red variants) tints instead ?
3. Preferred unit tint random choices. how many is considered appropriate?
4. In addition to ranges. what makes Howitzer a preferred siege gun choices of the Enlightenment Era? adjustable ranges by angling rather than propeller adjustments?
Even so Coehorns and bigger mortars were still kept in reserves, particualry by Fortresses and Navy. under which circumstances that Mortars are preferrable over Howitzers?
 
1. Then again the French Revolutionary government switched to Blue, did the revoluitonalry sets a blue dyeing standards? how many 'dips' has to be take and how many dyes, proportions per water ... etc. particularly with Revolutionary set up the Metric system along with others to dissociate themselves with the Old Regime?

The French Revolutionary/Napoleonic Commissaries had 'swatches' of the uniform colors to match newly-bought and dyed cloth against, but, for instance, John Elting in Swords Around the Throne (still the best book on Napoleon's Army in English) devotes an entire chapter to a discussion of all the complaints, problems, and variations in the colors and elements of the French uniforms. In 1809 the French government even officially began to consider going back to the Royal French Army's white uniforms, because white was the only color that could be 'standardized' - and it was cheap, of course.
As far as I know, because of the variations in dyes, plants, and diemakers, there were no guidelines on the manufacture of the color from the dyes, just a 'end result' match to a standard swatch of dyed cloth. That doesn't help now, because those swatches are long gone, and even if they weren't, there's no telling what kind of chemical/weathering action has happened to them over the intervening 200 + years.

Also, and Elting uses this quote:

"There are three sorts of uniforms in any period of history: those described in the uniform regulations; those shown by the artists of that period; and what the soldiers really wore!"

I can guarantee you from personal experience, the three types of 'uniforms' are Never the same, even in the modern bureaucratized armies.
 
Siege Rifle model for my mod (Work in progress)
upload_2020-8-19_16-58-31.png

upload_2020-8-19_16-59-0.png


Gun to the left hand is what i'm working on. one to the right (20 pounder Parrot Rifle) serves as size comparision. This siege rifle is based on British 8 inch RML designs and Parrot rifled siege cannon respectively
1. What are wheel designs to take?
2. Carriage design. should it be wooden or iron? in ACW, wooden and iron mounts are both used as well while the gameplay accepts wheeled ones only.
Parrot siege rifle, Fort Pulaski.jpg

^ ACW era mortar with iron carriage.

^ British RML Howitzer (this one might be 8 inch. it fires 180+ pounds shell) with iron carriage (steel? this one appeared in 1870-1880 and it uses Bessemer steel I think). did Americans design wheeled iron carriage by the time of ACW yet?

And what are the correct elevation adjustment devices?
 
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