(2-13) Proposal: Early Naval Unit rework

balparmak

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Counter to pdan's proposal:
Spoiler :

Add a Galley melee boat at Fishing, move the trireme back to Philosophy, and remove the Dromon
Spoiler details :

View attachment 643479
Galley
available at Fishing
70 :c5production:
3:c5moves:
12:c5strength:
View attachment 643480
Trireme
Available at Philosophy
120:c5production:

4:c5moves:
18:c5strength:

Quinquereme (Carthage trireme replacement)
Available at Philosophy
120:c5production:

4:c5moves:
20:c5strength:
Heavy Assault
Pincer


Reasoning:
  • The trireme currently comes just slightly too late, and it's a bit strange that units can embark before there is a proper boat to defend them.
  • Closes the gap between trireme and Caravel, in which time triremes become desperately obsolete vs ranged attacks and city defenses.
  • This resolves some strangeness with some civs with their interactions with the melee unit line:
    • Polynesia has an ability that lets them build fishing boats with melee ships, but melee ships currently unlock 1 tech after fishing. In fact, there is another proposal to address this specific issue right now.
    • Carthage has an early trireme UU, which makes it anachronistic in ancient era, and it unlocks an entire unit domain before any other civ even can field units that can occupy the same tile type.
    • This also restores Carthage's incentive to go for the Sailing tech. Their UA currently takes the lighthouse off this tech, and the UU moves the unit unlock off this tech, leaving the tech barren, with only a wonder and a trade slot
  • Dromons kind of suck. There's no great way to put it. They are an odd fit as a unit that everyone can build, since they are a repurposed, and very unique byzantine unit. Greek fire being a closely guarded secret and all. In actual gameplay they are extremely weak, and are relegated to barb hunting on coastal tiles.
  • If naval melee unlocked as a unit line in medieval, that would actually make medieval feel comparatively more fresh. Aside from that, the dromon won't be missed much as a precursor for the galleass.

Moderator Action: pdan withdrew his original proposal, making this proposal the first one, so I reproduced it here so y'all could understand the context. - Recursive

Proposed Change:
- Add a Galley melee boat at Fishing, move the trireme back to Philosophy. (same as the original proposal)
- Carthage UU changed to Bireme (Galley replacement).
- Dromon renamed to Penteconter, retains the same model but uses arrows instead of flames in attacking.

Honestly I like pdan's proposal more but some people didn't like losing the Dromon. A smaller change is better than no change at all, naysayers can probably get behind this.
 
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pineappledan

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I would rename it to Liburna instead. The liburna is the antecedent boat design to the dromon.
 

Rekk

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What is the Quinquereme model to be used for?

It's interesting that the Dromom seems to be the only design of its time to use lateen sails.
 
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pineappledan

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I currently use the bireme for the embarked Shofet unit graphic in my 4UC mod. If the Carthaginian UU was changed to a bireme I would probably change the Shofet to use the Quinquereme graphics.

Not sure what I would do with Phoenicia if this goes through. I would much prefer that Carthage retain the Quinq as a Trireme with strong combat bonuses and the Bireme could stay with Phoenicia as a Galley replacement.
 

Tekamthi

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Dromon renamed to Penteconter, retains the same model but uses arrows instead of flames in attacking.
Penteconter retains some of the thematical misfit concerns identified by PD in his proposal to remove dromon -- his concern in this regard is right on. And in this vein, penteconter is truly a greco-roman-connected name, is it not? maybe we can find some useage in the periphery of their spheres, and we can certainly say the greco-roman empires were a big deal back then, but peoples elsewhere built watercraft with equivalent-ish capabilities that were not "penteconters".

"Galley" is a much more universal term, though is still somewhat regionalized around the mediterranean and europe, and its useage spans thousands of years. There were equally galleys in the 1400s CE as there were in 600 BC. Galley was equally used to describe trade ships as it was to describe warships... there are some drawbacks, but its such a staple of naval history, it makes sense to include it. That said, "galleass" is direct evolution of the "galley" -- if "galley" is to be used, it only makes sense to have it as the precursor to the "galleass".

Alternative naming scheme:

1st melee boat: "Aphract" -- this is an ambiguation of terms like bireme, trireme, penteconter, liburna etc. It specifically refers to oared ships without covered decks ie. the earliest known versions of these ship-types. Covered versions came later

Dromon replacement name: "Galley" -- galley, if used, should upgrade to galleass for thematic/historical alignment
 
Last edited:

DeAnno

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Carthage UU changed to Bireme (Galley replacement).
Would this have all the same stats it has now (incl 14? str.) I assume so but you might want to say explicitly.
 

pineappledan

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Penteconter retains some of the thematical misfit concerns identified by PD in his proposal to remove dromon -- his concern in this regard is right on. And in this vein, penteconter is truly a greco-roman-connected name, is it not? maybe we can find some useage in the periphery of their spheres, and we can certainly say the greco-roman empires were a big deal back then, but peoples elsewhere built watercraft with equivalent-ish capabilities that were not "penteconters".

"Galley" is a much more universal term, though is still somewhat regionalized around the mediterranean and europe, and its useage spans thousands of years. There were equally galleys in the 1400s CE as there were in 600 BC. Galley was equally used to describe trade ships as it was to describe warships... there are some drawbacks, but its such a staple of naval history, it makes sense to include it. That said, "galleass" is direct evolution of the "galley" -- if "galley" is to be used, it only makes sense to have it as the precursor to the "galleass".

Alternative naming scheme:

1st melee boat: "Aphract" -- this is an ambiguation of terms like bireme, trireme, penteconter, liburna etc. It specifically refers to oared ships without covered decks ie. the earliest known versions of these ship-types. Covered versions came later

Dromon replacement name: "Galley" -- galley, if used, should upgrade to galleass for thematic/historical alignment
I wonder if the most appropriate ancient boat wouldn't just be a canoe?
 

pineappledan

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What is the Quinquereme model to be used for?

Not sure what I would do with Phoenicia if this goes through. I would much prefer that Carthage retain the Quinq as a Trireme with strong combat bonuses and the Bireme could stay with Phoenicia as a Galley replacement.
Between this proposal and my trireme split proposal, the main difference is where the Quinquereme ends up.

I've determined that if this passes, and Carthage's quinquereme is replaced with the Bireme, then I will just give them the quinquereme back in my phoenicia mod, and give Phoenicia the Bireme.

Bireme will have the bonuses to exploration, and the Quinquereme will be a strong naval conqueror unit.

I guess if this passes then the quinquereme becomes a CS gift only in base VP
 

Recursive

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Proposal sponsored by pineappledan.
 
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