2.6 Discussion - Religion

[Complex]

I get what you're saying but what I'm trying to say is that of course there are people who believe that, but they aren't religious people.

Likewise, philosophical systems that do not seek to provide spiritual or divine answers are not religions.

A fine example is "Satanism". There are actually several different flavors, some of which actually worship the devil as a deity, while other sects (notable the "Church of Satan") are simply agnostic atheists who believe that nothing supersedes man's ability to express his feelings whether they be good or evil. In the first case, the worship and belief of something supernatural technically makes it a religion whereas the second example is not a religion but a philosophy for life. Even the "Church of Satan" itself describes itself as "unaffiliated" from any religious movement.

Soooo, what I think it comes down to is that philosophies / beliefs that do not touch on the supernatural / divine are not religions. Therefore, if they are not religions, they do not need to be governed by "religious civics". This is why I put "Reunion" in, to signify the most basic possible belief system that still qualifies as "religious" or "non-secular".

 

[c0d5579]

Not always true - there is plenty of evidence that your average Roman patrician believed that the Gods were there, in a remote sense, and sought appointment as a priest or augur as a political measure, but believed that, in the end, you were just gone. There were, according to your criteria, supernatural questions that were answered, but there was no afterlife worth mentioning.

 

[Shai_Halud]

First off, let me just say this is a fantastic discussion.

I think if you apply this thinking to just about any philosophy, you will find that a basic way to separate religious from secular philosophies is by whether they hold supernatural beliefs or answer supernatural questions.

That would be the case if people could be counted on to distinguish between natural and supernatural, but the difference between the two is purely subjective and almost always defined by the prevailing philosophy of one's society. The Inca believed they had good reason for worshiping the dead and believed they could hear thier dead talking to them. Christians throughout history have considered tribal and polytheistic beliefs ans primitive and supernatural while, for some reason holding miracles (such as healing and resurrection) as a proof of God. Islam considers nearly all miracles to be false and supernatural and holds that the existence and order of the universe is a miraculous proof of God. Empiricism is the prevailing philosophy today and naturally rejects all products of preceding philosophies as supernatural. It regards Communism as secular despite its theocratic rhetoric, the saint-like status of its founders, mindless obedience to an obviously flawed economic theory, and the tendency of its propaganda to resemble icons of the Russian Orthodox Church. Don't be so quick to assume that we are so much more reasonable than our ancestors.

To put it simply, we cannot trust ourselves to distinguish between natural and supernatural as our objective knowledge of the natural is severely limited. Probably the best way to define a religion (to leave none of them out, that is) is as whatever practices or beliefs people believe will bring them to "enlightenment", or a higher state of being, as defined by their society. Not to suggest that Communism should... well... wait, I suppose thier "higher state of being is a "Communist" as defined by the Communist Manifesto (a socially aware and active person who acts in the name and for the benefit of "The People"). So if we end up adding the viking religion in, we could and Communism to keep the numbers even and use the term socialism to refer to the economic theory.

Of course than has absolutely nothing to do with why I came here. I just wanted to let you all know I'm compiling a list of sects (six each) for each of the 10 religions currently in the game. And I had to work damn hard to find six divisions of Zoroastrianism (technically, there are only three I'm aware of and one of those worships a different god from the rest). I'll have it up before the end of the day probably. Appreciate it.

 

[Shai_Halud]

This list is freaking huge. Let me just say that, in reality, a lot of these divisions don't exist. Also, there are more Muslim and Christian sects than there are stars in the sky, I had to pick and choose please don't be angry with me. The details are here to facilitate their inclusion into the game. Basically, which religious civics you chose determine which of the sects you found. The properties of the sects should be based on the information below.


Egyptianism

• The Ennead - consisted of Ra, his children Shu and Tefnut, and their descendants Geb, Isis, Nephthys, Nut, Osiris, and Se headed by Atum) was worshipped. This grouping was hierarchical and used as a device by the priests to stress the importance of either the Sun God Ra or the Sky God Horus (it’s not easy to determine which due to inconsistencies in the research); Moralistic
• Ptah - was the chief deity in Memphis, later extended into the triad of Ptah-Sekhmet-Neferte. Ptah was a creation deity and a personification of the earth as a mound rising up out of the sea of Chaos; Aggressive
• Ogdoad - First it was a cult having Hathor and Ra; later changing to a cult where Hathor and Thoth were the main deities over a much larger number of deities headed by Thoth.; Scientific
• The triad Amun-Mut-Khons. Chief god being Amun who seems to be a fertility god of creation and the sun; Protective
• The triad Khnum-Satis-Anuket. – Chief god was Khnum who was the source of the Nile river and its annual flooding; Fertile
• Atenism - focused on the Egyptian sun deity Aten as a monotheistic supreme god; Authoritative

Hinduism

• Folk Hinduism - as based on local traditions and cults of local deities at communal level and spanning thorough to pre-historic times or at least prior to written Vedas. ; Aggressive
• Vedic - as still being practiced by traditionalist Brahmins, for example shrautins.; Fertile
• Vedantic - for example Advaita (Smartism), as based on philosophical approach
• of the Upanishads.; Sceintific
• Yogic Hinduism - especially based on the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. Authoritative
• "Dharmic" or "daily morality" - based on the notion of Karma, and societal norms such as Hindu marriage customs etc.; Moralistic
• Bhakti or devotionalism - especially as in Vaishnavism- distinguished from other schools by its worship of Vishnu or its associated avatars, principally as Rama and Krishna, as the original and supreme God.; Protective

Hellenism

• Cult of Zeus – God of kings: Authoritative
• Cult of Apollo – God of virtue and prophesy; heavily associated with the sun: Moralistic
• Cult of Hestia – Goddess of the hearth; Protective
• Cult of Ares – God of war; Aggressive
• Cult of Hera – Goddess of family and motherhood: Fertile
• Cult of the Godhead – Many philosophers did not agree with the traditional belief in multiple gods of relatively equal power. They believed that some singular, greater power gave rise to all the lesser gods and that this greater power, often entitled “the Godhead” should be worshiped as superior to the Olympians: Scientific

Judaism

• Orthodox Judaism - holds that both the Written and Oral Torah were divinely revealed to Moses, and that the laws within it are binding and unchanging.; Authoritative
• Masorti Judaism – Reaction to the enlightenment; Characterized by a commitment to following traditional Jewish laws and customs, including observance of Shabbat and kashrut, a deliberately non-fundamentalist teaching of Jewish principles of faith, a positive attitude toward modern culture, and an acceptance of both traditional rabbinic modes of study along with modern scholarship and critical text study when considering Jewish religious texts; Scientific
• Reform Judaism - Its defining characteristic with respect to the other movements is its rejection of the binding nature of Jewish ceremonial law as such and belief instead that individual Jews should exercise an informed autonomy about what to observe.; Protective
• Reconstructionist Judaism- emphasizes reinterpreting Judaism for modern times. Like Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism does not hold that Jewish law, as such, requires observance, but unlike Reform, Reconstructionist thought emphasizes the role of the community in deciding what observances to follow.; Fertile
• Jewish Renewal - focuses on spirituality and social justice, but does not address issues of Jewish law. Men and women participate equally in prayer.; Moralistic
• Humanistic Judaism - A small nontheistic movement that emphasizes Jewish culture and history as the sources of Jewish identity ; Scientific
• Zealotry - a Jewish political movement in the 1st century which sought to incite the people of Iudaea Province to rebel against the Roman Empire and expel it from the country by force of arms; opposed the Romans due to Rome's intolerance of their culture and on the grounds that Israel belonged only to a Jewish king descended from King David ; Aggressive

Zoroastrianism

• Asura Pantheon – Refers to the polytheistic worship of the Asura Gods which went on in Iran until Zoroaster’s teachings (that good Asura obey Ahura Mazda and bad ones don’t and thus should not be worshiped, for instance) came to prominence.; Fertile
• The Zoroastrian Church – Refers to the traditional beliefs of Zoroastrians as first taught to them by their prophet and adopted later by the Persian Empire; Authoritative
• Zurvanism - had the divinity Zurvan as its First Principle (primordial creator deity). Here, Ahura Mazda was not the transcendental God, but one of two equal-but-opposite divinities under the supremacy of Zurvan, 'Time'.; Aggressive
• Ilm-e-Kshnoom - a school of Parsi-Zoroastrian philosophy based on a mystic and esoteric, rather than literal, interpretation of religious texts. According to the adherents of the sect, they are followers of the Zoroastrian faith as preserved by a clan of 2000 individuals called the Saheb-e-Dilan ('Masters of the Heart') who are said to live in complete isolation in the mountainous recesses of the Caucasus (alternatively, in the Alborz range, around Mount Damavand); Scientific
• Manichaeism – Actually considered a different religion, though it can be thought of as a merging of Zoroastrianism and Gnosticism. Principle prophet is Mani and central belief is that there are two gods (one good one evil) who vie for power within a person’s soul. This is a severe departure from the Zoroastrian beliefs about the nature of God (the uncreated code of the universe).; Protective
• Mazdakism - The two distinguishing factors of Mazdak's teaching were the reduction of the importance of religious formalities — the true religious person being the one who understood and related correctly to the principles of the universe — and a criticism of the strong position of Zoroastrian clergy, who, he believed, had oppressed the Persian population and caused much poverty. Mazdak emphasized good conduct, which involved a moral and ascetic life, no killing and not eating flesh (which contained substances solely from Darkness), being kind and friendly and living in peace with other people.; Moralistic

Buddhism
(I’m not going to lie to you, the terminology used in discussing these sects is not familiar to me, so I’m just doing the best I can to define them)

• Theravāda - the oldest surviving Buddhist school. Theravada philosophy is a continuous analytical process of life, not a mere set of ethics and rituals. Conservative. Emphasizes the Four Noble Truths as revealed by the Buddha. Doctrine says that insight must come from the aspirant's experience, critical investigation, and reasoning instead of by blind faith. However, scripture is used as a guide.; Scientific
• Mahayana – Emphasizes the Mahayana Sutras, sometimes as the manifestation of Buddha himself. Very widespread with several offshoots. Characterized by eclecticism and a general belief in a common search for salvation, sometimes thought to be attainable through faith alone.; Fertile
• Vajrayāna – Similar to Mahayana in philosophy, but differs mainly in practices.; Authoritative
• Jodo or “Pure Land” – Offshoot of Mahayana. Concentrates on the Amitabha Buddha almost as a personal savior. Amitabha, in his 48 vows, his 18th and 19th vows promise entry into this Pure Land to any who calls upon his name as few as 10 times in their life and to anyone who calls out his name upon the moment of their death. This will make reaching Nirvana far easier in thier next life. Very popular among the working class. Practices include mantras of his name and meditation on Amitabha himself and/or his Pure Land.; Protective
• Zen – Concentrates on a moment to moment understanding of the world and of the mind. Menial tasks are seen as central. It is a way of life. Group activity is used to limit the influence of one’s ego. Various forms of meditation are used to empty one’s mind, unite the mind with the body/world, and escape ordinary patterns of thought. As teachings are said to have been passed down from the Buddha, lineages are often important in assessing a teacher’s ability. They tell who taught who.; Aggressive
• Shingon – Offshoot of Mahayana and a form of Vajrayāna. Concentrates on remembering one’s own Buddha-nature through meditation using mudras and ritual instruments for enlightenment of the body, mantras for enlightenment of speech, and mandalas and meditation for enlightenment of the mind. It is a highly esoteric form of Buddhism. Enlightenment is achievable in a single lifetime.; Moralistic

Confucianism
(I think I’m creating a lot of divisions here which don’t exist, but, seriously, Confucians seem to pretty much agree with each other)

• Neo-Confucianism - a philosophy that attempted to merge certain basic elements of Confucian, Taoist, and Buddhist thought. Attempts to find principles through observational science.
• Philosophical Confucianism – This is the practice of Confucianism as a philosophy which can exist alongside other religions.
• Religious Confucianism – This is the practice of Confucianism in its traditional form which includes ancestor worship, a belief in an abstract celestial deity, various rituals and rites, and the deification of ancient kings and even Confucius himself along with a skeptical view towards otherworldly beings. Excludes the practice of any other religion and tends to deny its own identity as a religion.
• New-Confucianism - a new movement of Confucianism that began in the twentieth century. Often associated with the essay, "A Manifesto on Chinese Culture to the World." The Manifesto presents a vision of Chinese culture as having a fundamental unity throughout history, of which Confucianism is the highest expression. a "New Confucian" is anyone who (1) believes that Confucianism can and should accommodate modern science and democracy, (2) argues that Confucianism has a distinctive contribution to make to Western thought, and (3) interprets Confucianism along the general lines of Neo-Confucianism.
• “State” Confucianism – Focuses on the accommodating needs of the local people through Confucian philosophy. Accommodates whatever culture it comes in contact with and takes the name of the state it is practiced in. Tries to bring about Confucian reforms in state lay and spread Confucianism throughout that particular state.
• Temple Confucianism – Identified by the practice of building temples to honor Confucius as well as numerous noteworthy scholars throughout history. Statues of the honored ones are housed in the temples and offerings are made to their spirits.

Taoism

• Philosophical Taoism or Daojia - A philosophical school based on the texts Dao De Jing (道德&#32147 and Zhuangzi (莊&#23376
• Zhengyi or Orthodoxy – a Chinese Taoist movement that emerged during the Tang Dynasty as a transformation of the earlier Tianshi Tao movement. Like Tianshi Dao, the leader of Zhengyi Daoism was known as the Celestial Master. Unlike prior incarnations of the Celestial Masters, like the school based at Louguan, the Zhengyi Taoists did not venerate Laozi as a god. Instead, he was viewed as the ancestor of the school's teaching.
• Folk Taoism - The Chinese folk religion as it was adapted to serve Taoist beliefs
• Sinaism or Pangu – taken from the Greco-Roman term Sinai meaning “the Chinese”, this word refers to Chinese Mythology as a whole rather than the portion of it which was adopted by the Taoist religion.
• Quanzhen or Complete Reality - specializes in the process of "alchemy within the body" or Neidan (internal alchemy), as opposed to Waidan (external alchemy which experiments with the ingestion of herbs and minerals, etc). The Waidan tradition has been largely replaced by Neidan, as Waidan was a dangerous and often lethal pursuit. Quanzhen focuses on internal cultivation of the person which is consistent with the pervading Taoist belief of Wu Wei, which is essentially "action through inaction." Like most Taoists, Quanzhen priests were particularly concerned with longevity through alchemy, harmonizing oneself with the Tao, studying the Five Elements, and ideas on balance consistent with Yin-Yang theory.
• Tianshi or Way of the Celestial Masters - a Chinese Taoist movement that was founded by Zhang Daoling in 142 CE. At its height, the movement controlled a theocratic state in Sichuan. Illness, in this sect, was caused by sin. Repentance through mediation or prostration and acknowledgement of one’s sins was necessary to relieve sickness. Semen is considered the embodiment of qi. If someone ejaculated too often, their life would be shortened. While Daojia advocates not ejaculating during sex in order to 'nourish the brain,' the Celestial Masters frowned upon this, and advocated non-ejaculation simply as a way to avoid losing qi. In addition, the Celestial Masters thought that the Daojia method of stealing a woman's qi to replenish the man's own qi was completely wrong, and should not be practiced. Sect was highly organized and structured along theocratic lines.

Naghualism
(I'm quoting this part off the top of my head as I'm having trouble finding my book on the subject. I'll make corrections after I find the book)

• Cult of Quetzalcoatl - Snake god of rebirth; Merciful and wise god; patron of humanity; his temples were often used as schools or universities for the nobility; prohibited human sacrifice, preferring the sacrifice of flowers and butterflies
• Cult of Huitzilopitchli - War god of the Sun; national patron of the Aztecs; required daily offerings of human hearts to carry on his war with the demons who lived in the stars; also considered to be the source of destiny and names
• Cult of Tlaloc - War god of Rain and Thunder; very wrathful; required the yearly sacrifice of several children who were tortured to death (their tears were considered to be an offering to him); Favorite god of the Teotihuacano Empire (their enemies believed him to be a god of death)
• Cult of Xipe Totec - "the Flayed Lord"; Undead God of Corn; required the yearly gladiatorial sacrifice of captured warriors who were then skinned and worn for a month to resemble husks of corn
• Cult of the Tezcatlipoca -God of kings, darkness, evil, sorcery, and death; mortal enemy of Quetzalcoatl; kings prayed to him for power and sorcerers worshiped him almost exclusively; King of the gods; none of the Aztecs liked him but rather, worshiped him out of fear and necessity (one of his epithets is Titlacauan meaning "We are his Slaves" and another is Necoc Yaotl meaning "Enemy of Both Sides") ; his temple is one of the largest in Tenochtitlan, though few people ever entered it, and Quetzalcoatl's is one of the smallest, but nearly all visited regularly
• Cult of the Leader - The Maya believed that their dead leaders became goods in heaven and that their living nobility could commune with these gods through blood sacrifice. As the sole conduit to heaven, the shaman leader was the only one who could pray to the gods for rain, victory, or fertility and thus he wielded remarkable power and loyalty. There is record of a noble once being kidnapped and his people would not allow any member of his family to replace him until it was confirmed that he had died 11 years later.

Christianity

• Orthodoxy – Exists to preserve the original message of the Christian faith and bring others closer to God by facilitating the innumerable Mysteries. Does not acknowledge the Pope as anything other than the Bishop of Rome and vest almost all religious authority with the Archdioceses of the Ecumenical Council. Free will is extraordinarily heavily stressed. Even the shallowest theological discussion does not fail to mention it. More mystical than other forms of Christianity. Relatively little evangelism.
• Catholicism – Exists to bring together all the Christian faithful, preserve the message of Christ and his apostles, and administer the Seven Sacraments. Acknowledges the Pope as head of the Christian Church, with is authority descending directly from Peter who was chosen by Christ. Good works and charity are heavily encouraged due to the principle of Purgatory. Has a history of manipulating governments and inciting crusades. Theology very similar to Orthodoxy, but tends to be explained in more concrete, less mystical terms.
• National Supremacy or Church of “State” – Acknowledges the head of one’s stated as head of the church, chosen by God to rule over all the people of his lands. Otherwise similar to the Catholic church. Discourages charity and good works except as regulated by the state. Relatively little evangelism due to its nationalist nature.
• Lutheranism – Does not acknowledge any but God as a supreme authority. Emphasizes the importance of a personal relationship with God, salvation through faith, and the authority of the Bible. Good works and charity are looked highly upon, but not necessary for salvation.
• Calvinism – Emphasizes humanity as being at the mercy of God, who would be just in condemning all people for their sins, but who has chosen to be merciful to some. Does not acknowledge any but God as supreme. Believes in a kind of predestination. Can be extraordinarily strict. Society is led by the Elect who are identified by their moral character and worldly success. Emphasizes the authority of the literal word of the Bible even more than Lutheranism. Once attempted to replace the Catholic Church through warfare. Is the only form of Christianity which does not acknowledge free will. Does encourage charity and good works, but these tend to be, in large part regulated by the state under Calvinism.
• Primitivism – Sees itself as reinventing the whole church for a new age. Places extraordinary importance on the word of the Bible. Consists of several relatively independent movements which tend to disagree with each other heavily. Have a strong moral and evangelist ethics. Very little regard for church tradition, protestant or Orthodox Catholic. See older, more organized churches as corrupt. They tend to see the world as near its end.

Islam

• Sunni - believes that Muhammad did not specifically appoint a successor to lead the Muslim community before his death, and after an initial period of confusion, a group of his most prominent companions gathered and elected Muhammad's close friend and a father-in-law, as the first Caliph of Islam. Sunni Muslims regard the first four Caliphs as the al-Khulafā’ur-Rāshidūn or "Rashidun" ('The Rightly Guided Caliphs'). Sunnis also believe that the position of Caliph may be democratically chosen, but after the first four Rightly Guided Caliphs the position turned into a hereditary dynastic rule.
• Shi’a - believe that his family, the Ahl al-Bayt (the People of the House), including his descendants known as Imams, have special spiritual and political rule over the community and believe that Ali ibn Abi Talib, Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law, was the first of these Imams and was the rightful successor to Muhammad, and thus reject the legitimacy of the first three Rashidun caliphs.
• Kharijite - while originally supporting the Caliphate of Ali, they eventually rejected his legitimacy after he negotiated with Mu'awiya during the 7th Century Islamic civil war (First Fitna). Their complaint was that the Imam must be spiritually pure, and that Ali's compromise with Mu'awiya was a compromise of his spiritual purity, and therefore of his legitimacy as Imam or Caliph. While there are few remaining Kharijite or Kharijite-related groups, the term is sometimes used to denote Muslims who refuse to compromise with those with whom they disagree.
• Sufism – is a mystical-ascetic form of Islam practiced by many Sunni and Shi'a Muslims. By focusing on the more spiritual aspects of religion, Sufis strive to obtain direct experience of God by making use of "intuitive and emotional faculties" that one must be trained to use. Sufis usually considered Sufism to be complementary to orthodox Islam, however it has widely been criticized by many Muslims on the whole for being an unjustified Bid‘ah or religious innovation. One starts with sharia (Islamic law), the exoteric or mundane practice of Islam and then is initiated into the mystical (esoteric path of a Tariqah (Sufi Order)
• Ahmadiyya - followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who claimed to be the Mujaddid of the 14th Islamic century, the promised Messiah ("Second Coming of Christ") and Mahdi, as well as the likeness of all the prophets. The followers are divided into two groups, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community and the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement for the Propagation of Islam, the former believing that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a non-law bearing prophet and the latter believing that he was only a religious reformer though a prophet in an allegorical sense. Followers of Ghulam Ahmad consider themselves Muslim and believe their form of Islam to be a re-establishment of the original teachings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad.
• Nation of Islam - was founded by Wallace Fard Muhammad in 1930 with a declared aim of "resurrecting" the spiritual, mental, social and economic condition of the black man and woman of America and the world. The expressed teachings of the Nation of Islam have been subject to many changes, with at one point believing Fard to be God incarnate, being re-named the Muslim American Society, having a major division, and then reconciliation. It is viewed by almost all Muslims as a heretical cult.

 

[Complex]

You are absolutely correct that many in the upper levels of Roman society did not believe in an afterlife. However, that's a personal interpretation of the religion, not the official dogma of the priests. The pantheon of gods worshiped by the majority of Romans clearly believed in an afterlife. Likewise, as a Catholic, I could say I believe in God in some remote sense and refuse to accept the concept of heaven, but the faith as a whole does believe in the afterlife.

@Shai - That's a fantastic list you were able to compile there. I really don't want to seem like I'm raining on your parade but I have to ask, in what sense could all of these sects be practically applied to civ and still be different enough to justify switches? Or is it just a flavor thing?


I'm sorry, but I just can't bring myself to agree with the idea of Communism being included as a religion. As I said previously, it does have many similarities to a religion, but it is an inherently secular philosophy. The complete and utter rejection of religion is not in and of itself a religion. Rather, it is the absence of religion. Besides, how would you run anything other than socialist economic policy if the state religion is Communism? It would be somewhat hard to swallow the idea of a country that worships a socialist political theory as divine but runs a free market economy.

Probably the best way to define a religion (to leave none of them out, that is) is as whatever practices or beliefs people believe will bring them to "enlightenment", or a higher state of being, as defined by their society.

Too broad imo. Using that logic, I could argue that working out at the gym everyday brings me to a higher state of being and makes me a better person. Does that make physical fitness a religion?

Besides, another thing that makes religions different is the ability to transcend national and societal boundaries. Political & societal philosophy in France is significantly different from that of the US, but they are both Christian majority nations. French society (or w/e society you want to use) did not "define" Christianity, rather instead, the philosophies of those countries were further defined and adapted to fit with Christianity. On a whole, religions tend to influence nations more than nations influence religions. Not saying that's the way it is 100% of the time, but for the most part it holds true. The spread of Christianity through Europe in many ways demonstrates this, as the individual societies were not defining the path to a higher state of being, the religion was changing the way that society viewed a higher state of being. Same thing holds true when you look at the spread of Islam, nations adapted to Islam, Islam did not adapt to nations. Religious schisms appear in various nations from time to time, sometimes due to political differences, however the reasoning for the schisms tend to come from theological differences of opinion. Even a blatant political power grab like Henry VIII pulled had it's roots in the theological disagreements of the Reformation.

I know it seems "fair" to make broad definitions so as not to exclude or offend anyone, but in my opinion this is where Firaxis went wrong on this subject in the first place. Truth is, throughout history there has always been a rather distinct difference between secular and religious philosophy. That key difference is having faith in something that cannot be fully explained by man, you just believe it, hence the word "faith". So in essence, it's not that I'm advocating the exclusion of secular philosophies, I'm merely stating that they are not religions and therefore do not need to be represented in a system of religious civics. The goal of my posting all this in the first place was to enhance the significance of religion and religious choices, not further dilute them by trying to include every secular philosophy under the sun. I agree that a society's philosophical stance should be more heavily represented and as such, I suggested that in place of the old religion column on the main civic screen should be a "philosophy" column and the religious civics should be controlled from a new page under the religious adviser screen.

 

[Shai_Halud]

Notice in the Herllenistic cults that I put tags on the end to show what values they represent. These values would have parallels in each of the of the religions. I think I'll put tags on the end of the rest of them to clarify. Your civics determine which value you favor most and the sect of your religion with that value is the sect founded. Also, the same sect could be founded more than once by changing its name slightly. For instance, Orthodox Christianity founded in Siam would be called the "Siamese Orthodox Church". If it was founded again in China, then that sect would be called the "Chinese Orthodox Church". If the same sect is founded in the same nation again, then the civics of that sect in every city change as the new sect does not break away from the old but reforms it.

Using that logic, I could argue that working out at the gym everyday brings me to a higher state of being and makes me a better person. Does that make physical fitness a religion?

Besides, another thing that makes religions different is the ability to transcend national and societal boundaries. Political & societal philosophy in France is significantly different from that of the US, but they are both Christian majority nations.

If physical fitness is seen by your society as the highest form of self-improvement, them yes. I believe the Greeks considered an enlightened mind to be evident in a beautiful body, so among them, the practice of sports could be considered religious. This is evident in their use of various tournaments to honor the gods and their portrayal of the gods and physically fit. The Buddha, on the other hand represents a different ideal and therefore takes on a wholly different form. Also, I believe the May once had a cult called the "Cult of the Fat Man" which worshiped idols resembling the Buddha but that's besides the point.

Also, there is no limit to how many societies can have the same values. Even different religions with different practices and beliefs may aspire towards the same goal. Technically, the ideal of enlightenment is the same in all societies, but is expressed differently by all. The most radical difference being in how one judges who is enlightened and who is not. But one could very well say that some people get the same feeling from playing a violin as another might torturing children to death. Due to the radically different contexts, expressing the feeling which both activities evoke in different people is practically impossible to do in words, but expressing it through allegory is very possible.

 

[Shai_Halud]

I'm sorry, but I just can't bring myself to agree with the idea of Communism being included as a religion. As I said previously, it does have many similarities to a religion, but it is an inherently secular philosophy. The complete and utter rejection of religion is not in and of itself a religion. Rather, it is the absence of religion. Besides, how would you run anything other than socialist economic policy if the state religion is Communism? It would be somewhat hard to swallow the idea of a country that worships a socialist political theory as divine but runs a free market economy.

"If religion is by definition worship of supernatural entities, the answer must be that Confucianism is not a religion. If, on the other hand, a religion is defined as a belief system that includes moral stances, guides for daily life, systematic views of humanity and its place in the universe, etc., then Confucianism most definitely qualifies. As with many such important concepts, the definition of religion is quite contentious." from the wikipedia article on Confucianism.

Basically, Communism could be a religion in Civ 4 if it became convenient for it to do so. It even has sects such as Leninism, Marxism, and Maoism. Stalin could be a great prophet. It even spreads like a religion, disseminating amongst the people by way of philosopher soldiers before taking over the government. However, if it is not needed or convenient, no one will ask questions id we leave it out.

 

[Complex]

If physical fitness is seen by your society as the highest form of self-improvement, them yes. I believe the Greeks considered an enlightened mind to be evident in a beautiful body, so among them, the practice of sports could be considered religious. This is evident in their use of various tournaments to honor the gods and their portrayal of the gods and physically fit.

This is circumstantial and self-fulfilling. Essentially what you are saying is if you bridge enough references together you can connect two divergent concepts. First off, you have to draw the line somewhere. If we follow that reasoning far enough we could say that Starbucks is my temple, my barista is my priest, and a grande white mocha is my Eucharist because I consider coffee drinkers the epitome of enlightenment. Second, athletics is something that developed in multiple places around the world completely independent of any specific religion. Just because someone dedicates an athletic competition to a certain god does not mean that the two an intrinsically linked, rather that the people are merely paying the appropriate homage to the patron god of the event and asking his blessing to successfully conduct it. Gods were portrayed as physically fit for what I think ought to be obvious reasons. Gods were supposed to be unbelievably strong beings, with powers beyond comprehension and as such, you can't exactly sculpt marble statue of your average joe nobody.

The Buddha, on the other hand represents a different ideal and therefore takes on a wholly different form.

Buddha does represent a completely different ideal. For one, he is based on a real human being as opposed to a completely mythical deity. As for the "form", not all representations of the Buddha are porcelain statues of a fat dude on a mat.

Also, I believe the May once had a cult called the "Cult of the Fat Man" which worshiped idols resembling the Buddha but that's besides the point.

And there was a cult once in California that thought the world was coming to an end at the passing of a comet so they all killed themselves. Hey, it happened and is in the history books, maybe someone will cite that in a religious debate 200 years from now.

Also, there is no limit to how many societies can have the same values. Even different religions with different practices and beliefs may aspire towards the same goal. Technically, the ideal of enlightenment is the same in all societies, but is expressed differently by all. The most radical difference being in how one judges who is enlightened and who is not. But one could very well say that some people get the same feeling from playing a violin as another might torturing children to death. Due to the radically different contexts, expressing the feeling which both activities evoke in different people is practically impossible to do in words, but expressing it through allegory is very possible

Of course many people can share similar values.

Many diverse religions do aspire to similar goals.

The idea of enlightenment is most certainly NOT the same in all societies. This could be an entire post on it's own.

The fact that religions have different criteria for what is sacred or divine is hardly radical. In fact, it is the most basic and ordinary thing by which you classify beliefs.

Yes, many emotions, in fact I would argue all emotions are impossible to really qualify with words. I mean how do you really describe even a basic feeling like happy? You could say "Oh, it's when you feel good", but then the question becomes what does feeling "good" feel like? See where this is going?

"If religion is by definition worship of supernatural entities, the answer must be that Confucianism is not a religion. If, on the other hand, a religion is defined as a belief system that includes moral stances, guides for daily life, systematic views of humanity and its place in the universe, etc., then Confucianism most definitely qualifies. As with many such important concepts, the definition of religion is quite contentious." from the wikipedia article on Confucianism.

A. For the record, though Wikipedia is a very useful and handy resource for finding quick and general information about a particular topic, it is not the indisputable guardian of knowledge. Any one of my profs would have failed me if I ever had the nerve to cite Wikipedia on a paper, or ANY encyclopedia for that matter.
B. If you notice the banner above that particular section, even Wikipedia cannot agree on the validity of that passage, thereby making it an even poorer choice of citation.
C. That said, I'm inclined to agree with the many scholars who do not in fact consider Confucianism a religion. Personally, I do not think it meets the criteria and I think Firaxis was wrong to include it. I think they were looking for one more religion for the game and wanted something that would be recognizable and that had a significant impact on history. Just as Wikipedia can make mistakes, so too can Firaxis game developers. Imo, Confucianism is simply an ethical code of behavior.

Basically, Communism could be a religion in Civ 4 if it became convenient for it to do so. It even has sects such as Leninism, Marxism, and Maoism. Stalin could be a great prophet. It even spreads like a religion, disseminating amongst the people by way of philosopher soldiers before taking over the government.

Democracy has "sects" too. Republican, Representative, Liberal, Direct, etc.. It too tends to spread amongst the people by means of "philosophers". Does that make Democracy a religion too? Is Thomas Jefferson a great prophet?

 

[Shai_Halud]

A) This is circumstantial and self-fulfilling. Essentially what you are saying is if you bridge enough references together you can connect two divergent concepts. First off, you have to draw the line somewhere. If we follow that reasoning far enough we could say that Starbucks is my temple, my barista is my priest, and a grande white mocha is my Eucharist because I consider coffee drinkers the epitome of enlightenment...

B) The idea of enlightenment is most certainly NOT the same in all societies. This could be an entire post on it's own...

C) Just as Wikipedia can make mistakes, so too can Firaxis game developers. Imo, Confucianism is simply an ethical code of behavior.

A.) Yes, that would be a religious practice, but I wouldn't call it a religion unless at least 10 other people participate in your Eucharist

B) State two wholly disparate ideals of enlightenment

C) If Wiki and Fraxis can make mistakes then so can we. Though I don't know if I'd call the religion of Democracy "Democracy". Religious democracy would be something closer to the ideals and practices of the French Revolution (The Temple of the Supreme Being ring a bell?) Rousseau was fanatically religious. The patriots of early America, however, did not see the observance of democratic law as something that would elevate them to a higher state of being, it was just an efficient and fair way of running things, though I'm sure some of the founding fathers might have seen it as much more.

What makes communism, and all other religions different from things like Cafeism and the religion of Democracy, different is size. Democracy and Cafeism are not practices in a religious context nearly as widely as Communism is. Probably the biggest tip off as to when a movement is becoming religious is when it begins to discourage its members from practicing other religions. A French philosopher once said "There is a certain superstition to avoiding superstition." The point being that whenever people try to dispose of their supernatural beliefs, they end up creating new ones instead. Communist "Atheism" has therefore probably been the cause of communism being so widely practiced as a religion. I believe you yourself said that no religion simple shrugs its shoulders and says it doesn't know what happens to people when they die. Communism certainly does not shrug its shoulders: according to them you cease to exist -they know. You see? Baseless superstition. Faith. to say nothing of their economic theories. Marx was a wonderful philosopher, but he didn't have a clue when it came to economics. This is very obvious to any sane man who reads the communist manifesto, yet the beauty of communist philosophy wins people over. They believe out of emotion, not out of reason. And yes the same could be said about coco puffs and Wilson's 11 Points, but they hardly fit the other criteria of size and enlightenment. Also, individuals must see this activity as the best way to achieve their society's form of enlightenment. Only the activities and beliefs considered to be the most religious qualify as religious. Thus, hymns tend to trump theme songs if you get what I'm saying, but they don't have to.

 

[Complex]

Did you just say that Democracy is not as widely practiced as Communism?

I'm having a lot of difficulty trying to figure out what your point in all of that was.

Who sets this criteria for size or enlightenment? What does 10 people have to do with anything?

Not all religious movements are intolerant of other practices. Buddhists for example are allowed to attend other religious services and celebrate other religions' holidays if they choose to.

Two disparate concepts of enlightenment, ok. See Socrates vs. Sophists. I'm not typing another long ass essay, but if you read up on the topic (preferably from something other than an encyclopedia) you will find two completely different concepts of man, life, ethics, behavior, and yes, enlightenment too. Not the only example there either. You'll find lots of people from lots of places over lots of years have had lots of different ideas of the perfect or enlightened human being. Another example would be let's say Norse Mythology vs. Buddhism, one holds dying in glorious combat as divine while the other is completely pacifistic. Want something more modern? Check out Objectivist vs. Collectivist philosophy and their respective views on the ultimate ideal of man.

If Communism is a religion then so is Democracy, period. I really find it hard to argue against that.

As long as we're diving down this rabbit hole, National Socialism was widely practiced for a time and it's followers were some of the most blindly devoted subjects in all of history. Does that make Hitler a prophet? According to your logic it does.

A French philosopher once said there is a certain superstition to avoiding superstition

Francis Bacon said that and he was English, not French. The full context of that is:

"There is a superstition in avoiding superstition, when men think to do best if they go furthest from the superstition formerly received; therefore care would be had that (as if fareth in ill purgings) the good be not taken away with the bad; which commonly is done when the people is the reformer."

He also said:
"It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion"

 

[c0d5579]

While this is all well and good, what does any of it have to do with game development?

 

[Shai_Halud]

While this is all well and good, what does any of it have to do with game development?

Yeah, I sort of noticed that. After I worked so hard to come up with all those sects, I figured I'd just relax and argue with Complex for a while. Still, it would probably be a good idea for someone to find a better way of organizing the sects according to their attributes. The rudimentary system I used doesn't work so well. Can anyone come up with six or seven categories that could be applied to each set?

 

[c0d5579]

Regarding viewing Hitler as a prophet, you could make a strong argument, based on the Fuehrerprinzip, that the National Socialist state embodies the Divine Cult civic, as written. Given the weak performance of Great Prophets in modern times in Civ 4, there is a strong case for including social philosophers in that list. Mein Kampf is turgid, silly, and badly written, but it was, among other things, a social blueprint.

Personally, I see including every single sect as needless if we can get a matrix of what traits define a religion (as we were doing earlier), kind of like the civics system as written allows you to have an oligarchic republic with a cult of the State and its protector deities (see also Rome) as well as an intolerant presidential dictatorship (see Hitler).

If you were to include secular philosophy as a religion, some aspects of the religious matrix still work - its relations with other religions, for instance - and some don't - afterlife is the sticking point here.

 

[Complex]

How about a great philosopher unit to go along with a socio-political 'philosophy' civic?

Like I said, I do think it's important to recognize the many secular philosophies that have influenced society over the centuries, I do not think that such representation needs to be done using 'religious' civics however. As you quite adeptly pointed out, certain aspects of the religious matrix don't work so well with secular philosophies.

So, let's assume that the current "religion" civic is moved and a philosophy civic included. Any suggestions for what should go in there? The way I had envisioned it, "philosophy" would not describe the current economic or political trends going on in a society but rather try to describe the overall outlook of the society towards fundamental and intangible questions, i.e. ethics, meaning of life, behavior toward others, etc...

Like I wouldn't want to use Communism so to speak, but Collectivism instead to imply basically the same thing, but on a human behavioral level.

Needless to say, there are many philosophies and only a certain amount of civics to be made. I'll post back later when I can narrow down the field a bit. Can't really make a project of it here @ work lol

 

[Shai_Halud]

Regarding viewing Hitler as a prophet, you could make a strong argument, based on the Fuehrerprinzip, that the National Socialist state embodies the Divine Cult civic, as written. Given the weak performance of Great Prophets in modern times in Civ 4, there is a strong case for including social philosophers in that list. Mein Kampf is turgid, silly, and badly written, but it was, among other things, a social blueprint.

Yes, but the mythology which was exclusive to the Nazis was pagan Germanic in origin (Heinrick Himmler's "Black Sun" and "Death's Head Ring"), so Nazism could be considered a modern divine cult version of that, not so much a religion of its own.

 

[Shai_Halud]

How about a great philosopher unit to go along with a socio-political 'philosophy' civic?(

Since there can be so much dispute over whether certain philosophies *especially political ones) can be considered religions, perhaps we could create another category of religion-like entities (like with corporations) which spread and promote certain civics?

 

[jm_dracolich]

Wow, that was an incredibly long read. But very entertaining.

I have to say about the whole political philosophy debate, that I don't think that it should be included in the religious civics at all. That's the point of the normal civics.

@Shai - Why don't you think your list works? I like it quite a bit actually. It works for flavor purposes. We just need to figure out how to implement it...

Hmmm I'll just see where this thread is going and I'll jump on accordingly.

 

[alireza1354]

Islam
Sunni - believes that Muhammad did not specifically appoint a successor to lead the Muslim community before his death, and after an initial period of confusion, a group of his most prominent companions gathered and elected Muhammad's close friend and a father-in-law, as the first Caliph of Islam. Sunni Muslims regard the first four Caliphs as the al-Khulafā’ur-Rāshidūn or "Rashidun" ('The Rightly Guided Caliphs'). Sunnis also believe that the position of Caliph may be democratically chosen, but after the first four Rightly Guided Caliphs the position turned into a hereditary dynastic rule.
Shi’a - believe that his family, the Ahl al-Bayt (the People of the House), including his descendants known as Imams, have special spiritual and political rule over the community and believe that Ali ibn Abi Talib, Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law, was the first of these Imams and was the rightful successor to Muhammad, and thus reject the legitimacy of the first three Rashidun caliphs.
Kharijite - while originally supporting the Caliphate of Ali, they eventually rejected his legitimacy after he negotiated with Mu'awiya during the 7th Century Islamic civil war (First Fitna). Their complaint was that the Imam must be spiritually pure, and that Ali's compromise with Mu'awiya was a compromise of his spiritual purity, and therefore of his legitimacy as Imam or Caliph. While there are few remaining Kharijite or Kharijite-related groups, the term is sometimes used to denote Muslims who refuse to compromise with those with whom they disagree.
Sufism – is a mystical-ascetic form of Islam practiced by many Sunni and Shi'a Muslims. By focusing on the more spiritual aspects of religion, Sufis strive to obtain direct experience of God by making use of "intuitive and emotional faculties" that one must be trained to use. Sufis usually considered Sufism to be complementary to orthodox Islam, however it has widely been criticized by many Muslims on the whole for being an unjustified Bid‘ah or religious innovation. One starts with sharia (Islamic law), the exoteric or mundane practice of Islam and then is initiated into the mystical (esoteric path of a Tariqah (Sufi Order)
Ahmadiyya - followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who claimed to be the Mujaddid of the 14th Islamic century, the promised Messiah ("Second Coming of Christ") and Mahdi, as well as the likeness of all the prophets. The followers are divided into two groups, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community and the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement for the Propagation of Islam, the former believing that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a non-law bearing prophet and the latter believing that he was only a religious reformer though a prophet in an allegorical sense. Followers of Ghulam Ahmad consider themselves Muslim and believe their form of Islam to be a re-establishment of the original teachings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad.
Nation of Islam - was founded by Wallace Fard Muhammad in 1930 with a declared aim of "resurrecting" the spiritual, mental, social and economic condition of the black man and woman of America and the world. The expressed teachings of the Nation of Islam have been subject to many changes, with at one point believing Fard to be God incarnate, being re-named the Muslim American Society, having a major division, and then reconciliation. It is viewed by almost all Muslims as a heretical cult.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely NOT.

If u want them in the chronological order of originating in islamic history, u should have these ones:

1. Sunnism.
2. Shiism.
3. Kharijism.
4. MUTAZILISM (oh my GOD how can people leave this one out, the by far most important group in the scientific and cultural area)
5. Ismailism.
6. Sufism.

What the hell is Nation of Islam or Ahmadiyya doing there? These sects have no importance in islamic history whatsoever, and are relatively new in the scene and unsuccesful.


If u want more info on these and their relevance in islamic history, ask me.

Happy new year

 

[alireza1354]

Judaism
Orthodox Judaism - holds that both the Written and Oral Torah were divinely revealed to Moses, and that the laws within it are binding and unchanging.; Authoritative
Masorti Judaism – Reaction to the enlightenment; Characterized by a commitment to following traditional Jewish laws and customs, including observance of Shabbat and kashrut, a deliberately non-fundamentalist teaching of Jewish principles of faith, a positive attitude toward modern culture, and an acceptance of both traditional rabbinic modes of study along with modern scholarship and critical text study when considering Jewish religious texts; Scientific
Reform Judaism - Its defining characteristic with respect to the other movements is its rejection of the binding nature of Jewish ceremonial law as such and belief instead that individual Jews should exercise an informed autonomy about what to observe.; Protective
Reconstructionist Judaism- emphasizes reinterpreting Judaism for modern times. Like Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism does not hold that Jewish law, as such, requires observance, but unlike Reform, Reconstructionist thought emphasizes the role of the community in deciding what observances to follow.; Fertile
Jewish Renewal - focuses on spirituality and social justice, but does not address issues of Jewish law. Men and women participate equally in prayer.; Moralistic
Humanistic Judaism - A small nontheistic movement that emphasizes Jewish culture and history as the sources of Jewish identity ; Scientific
Zealotry - a Jewish political movement in the 1st century which sought to incite the people of Iudaea Province to rebel against the Roman Empire and expel it from the country by force of arms; opposed the Romans due to Rome's intolerance of their culture and on the grounds that Israel belonged only to a Jewish king descended from King David ; Aggressive

Where is KARAISM?

 

[Shai_Halud]

Absolutely NOT.

If u want them in the chronological order of originating in islamic history, u should have these ones:

1. Sunnism.
2. Shiism.
3. Kharijism.
4. MUTAZILISM (oh my GOD how can people leave this one out, the by far most important group in the scientific and cultural area)
5. Ismailism.
6. Sufism.

What the hell is Nation of Islam or Ahmadiyya doing there? These sects have no importance in islamic history whatsoever, and are relatively new in the scene and unsuccesful.


If u want more info on these and their relevance in islamic history, ask me.

Happy new year

I'd be happy to leave the subject completely in your hands, but please understand that I was not going for any chronological order in my listing. Some of them just turned out that way. As far as the relatively unimportant branches go, Ahmadiyya was the first in alphabetical orderand Nation of Islam was just ne of the few I was fammiliar with and I considered it comparable to christian Reconstructionalism or New-Confucianism.

Actually, It would be nice if we could cut one from your list to include Heterodoxy (for the various heretical schools and breakaways as reconstructionalism was for). Which one of these would you say is the latest and least important or is there one which might be regarded as heretical by mainstream Islam?