CyberChrist
You caught my attention
I wonder if the 3D format for units will make it easier or harder for unitmakers to make their own units for mods?
2D or 3D?
- Thread starter mouselmm
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mouselmm
Asian Scenario Maker
CyberChrist said:
I think it will be harder if they turn Civ in 3D
mitsho
Deity
3D. no question. And there's just one answer. "You have to go with the time"! I mean, since there are no pros and cons for both sides (see arathorns post), you have to go with the more modern way.
And besides, I doubt that many (!) new players will buy civ4 if it's in 2D. (because of the above reason). And remark, I said many new players, not all!
mfG mitsho
And besides, I doubt that many (!) new players will buy civ4 if it's in 2D. (because of the above reason). And remark, I said many new players, not all!
mfG mitsho
thestonesfan
A Client of Ron Kuby
CyberChrist said:
No different, maybe even easier. You'd have to ask a unit creator. The units are still rendered in 3D, even though they are sprites in the game.
Well, i probably would be waiting at the game shop doors before opening on the day that Civ 4 was to be released. But, now it's not 2D, i'll definately be checking out reviews and stuff before i think about it.
Why? Cause Some games just SHOULD NOT BE 3D. it's purely and simply a way to appeal to the mainstream brainless idiots (you know, the kids that think Mariah Carry is cool). Lets just hope that it's not going to be as bad as i'm guessing it's going to be.
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/forums.asp?s=3&c=12&t=5209
Why? Cause Some games just SHOULD NOT BE 3D. it's purely and simply a way to appeal to the mainstream brainless idiots (you know, the kids that think Mariah Carry is cool). Lets just hope that it's not going to be as bad as i'm guessing it's going to be.
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/forums.asp?s=3&c=12&t=5209
shadowdude
cynic in training
At this point, I don't think it matters. CivIV will be in 3D, new releases always incorparate the latest and greatest technology. I just hope its not so wrapped up in 3D that it causes my computer to lag.
thestonesfan
A Client of Ron Kuby
It's crazy how people ALWAYS complain about a game going to 3D.
People probably complained about Quake being 3D.
"But Doom is in 2D and it's perfect! And my computer will lag! You call 3D progress?!? I call it the DEVIL!!!"
People probably complained about Quake being 3D.
"But Doom is in 2D and it's perfect! And my computer will lag! You call 3D progress?!? I call it the DEVIL!!!"
From my understanding of the comments made by Soren, the game will be in 3D. However, the level of 3D immersion is not mentioned. There may be a globe view that enables you to zoom in and out and view the game almost 2D close up, then zoom out to a 3D globe, move the your view around and zoom back in. The game may play like AOM, being in 3D while still perserving a partial isometric view. There are lots of options available that produce a hybrid 3D/2D game world that would not detract from the game at all. Personally, I'm hoping for a 3D globe so that the poles actually become part of the world and the world feels more like a real world.
warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
There are a few advantages to 3D. Zoom and the ability to adapt to any monitor size are 2 that come to mind off the top of my head.
Making units is easier for companies or individuals with the 3D tools than the 2D. I saw how the artists at Breakaway did the Conquests units. They would design all the units in 3D. Then they would render these down to 2D animations. The original 3D art was a lot better. It had more details and could be viewed from multiple angles.
Good 3D terrain would look a lot more immersive than a 2D map.
On high end systems there would be little CPU burden for the graphics as the video card would be doing the work.
Is 3D needed for Civ? No, I'd still play it if it used the old 'chit' style pieces from Civ1.
What are the down sides?
Low end systems could bog down or just plain not be able to run it.
If their artists aren't familiar with medium it could look bad. (Like I said, they already do all their artwork in 3D).
What doesn't (or at least shouldn't) matter?
Why would Firaxis change the keystrokes for moving units etc. just because they are going 3D? It's not like they said they were going away from a tiled-based turn-based game. If it were me, I wouldn't mess with that much.
AI
Depth of gameplay.
Making units is easier for companies or individuals with the 3D tools than the 2D. I saw how the artists at Breakaway did the Conquests units. They would design all the units in 3D. Then they would render these down to 2D animations. The original 3D art was a lot better. It had more details and could be viewed from multiple angles.
Good 3D terrain would look a lot more immersive than a 2D map.
On high end systems there would be little CPU burden for the graphics as the video card would be doing the work.
Is 3D needed for Civ? No, I'd still play it if it used the old 'chit' style pieces from Civ1.
What are the down sides?
Low end systems could bog down or just plain not be able to run it.
If their artists aren't familiar with medium it could look bad. (Like I said, they already do all their artwork in 3D).
What doesn't (or at least shouldn't) matter?
Why would Firaxis change the keystrokes for moving units etc. just because they are going 3D? It's not like they said they were going away from a tiled-based turn-based game. If it were me, I wouldn't mess with that much.
AI
Depth of gameplay.
thestonesfan
A Client of Ron Kuby
How will they handle land divisions on a true globe, though?
Full 3D is mainly for shooters.
Strategy games can do well in 3D, e.g. Medieval Total War.
But Civ3 is tile-based, and it requires overview and turn-based play.
Civ4 will be turn-based afaik, the only "3D" that would make sense is something like the mentioned AoM style.
Finally, I liked the old Fallout / Fallout Tactics perspective a lot, those rendered 3D models either require lots of complex textures to look good or they simply look like polygons. I am a lover of 2D Art - I liked Mech Commander 1 much more than Mech Commander 2.
For Pirates! they are going this damned Warcraft III Comic Style, I hope that Civ4 gets a less cartoonish look.
Strategy games can do well in 3D, e.g. Medieval Total War.
But Civ3 is tile-based, and it requires overview and turn-based play.
Civ4 will be turn-based afaik, the only "3D" that would make sense is something like the mentioned AoM style.
Finally, I liked the old Fallout / Fallout Tactics perspective a lot, those rendered 3D models either require lots of complex textures to look good or they simply look like polygons. I am a lover of 2D Art - I liked Mech Commander 1 much more than Mech Commander 2.
For Pirates! they are going this damned Warcraft III Comic Style, I hope that Civ4 gets a less cartoonish look.
warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
Longasc said:
I wholeheartedly agree!
Chieftess said:It could look something like this:
(No, I didn't make this, it was a code sample I found)
Granted, it might have effects like water-levels that you can "see" (transparent water). That way, you can see your own subs.
I belive instead of a hillside being 100 tiles, it would serve better for it to count as just 1 tile.... allthough graphically suburbias and such could appear.
It's 2006. 2d games have gone the way of the do-do, and most average machines today can handle 3d games flawlessly.
i think that if it looks anything ike that game populous (where you were god and mvoed your little shamen men aroudn) it would be bollocks. i also think that the scale of the game is too big for 3d to make much difference. 1 tile isnt 1 hill, but a hill range
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
For the most part I don't care about graphics. In that sense, I'd play a 2D civ 4 pretty easily.
But a 3D civ allows a few new concepts:
- putting your city on a plateau (right now there's only hills or plains)
- the water level rising, leading to some select tiles getting flooded
- raising the land level artificially, like in some parts of europe and asia
- mountains of different heights can have different meanings
* cultural, even religious significance of really high peaks
* significance for movement (make it over some mountains but not others, until technology or resources permits it)
While it doesn't mean that civ will move away from being tile based or turn based... I think it would mean that slopes cost more movement points than flatlands. That's just the impression I get, though.
But a 3D civ allows a few new concepts:
- putting your city on a plateau (right now there's only hills or plains)
- the water level rising, leading to some select tiles getting flooded
- raising the land level artificially, like in some parts of europe and asia
- mountains of different heights can have different meanings
* cultural, even religious significance of really high peaks
* significance for movement (make it over some mountains but not others, until technology or resources permits it)
While it doesn't mean that civ will move away from being tile based or turn based... I think it would mean that slopes cost more movement points than flatlands. That's just the impression I get, though.
Snoopy
Prince
Snoopy
Prince
Oh by the way, a lot of people are responding with fears that a 3D world will slow your computer down.
I have to disagree.
In Rise of Nations (which uses 3D unit models only), I can have up to 1000 units on screen at once, and my framerate remains around the 20fps (which is reasonable). This might be because the unit is in 3D, whereas 2D units, with all sides animated, actually use up more memory than 3D units where the unit is made up of tiny polygons and a few textures.
Also, 3D units will mean you can scale them up and down easily. So if you wanted your units to be to scale with the terrain, then its going to be as hard as typing a few keys.
I have to disagree.
In Rise of Nations (which uses 3D unit models only), I can have up to 1000 units on screen at once, and my framerate remains around the 20fps (which is reasonable). This might be because the unit is in 3D, whereas 2D units, with all sides animated, actually use up more memory than 3D units where the unit is made up of tiny polygons and a few textures.
Also, 3D units will mean you can scale them up and down easily. So if you wanted your units to be to scale with the terrain, then its going to be as hard as typing a few keys.
warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
That is one sweet screenshot, Snoop.
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