4.5 AI-Only Game Statistics (we love war)

L. Vern

Warlord
Joined
Sep 5, 2022
Messages
104
Location
Ontario, Canada
Going to be a pretty quick one today but should be a cool overview nontheless, wanted to put the numbers out there as I haven't done one of these in a while. I'm doing some more work on this to turn it into a grad course project so here's a quick look into how good the ai does conquering things. More ideas for stats you'd like to see would be appreciated.

These games were run on a version that's more or less 4.5, and the settings used now were default. Notably, that means ancient ruins are now enabled so the game speeds up a little bit compared to previous tests. Map was Communitu_79a v3.1.0 . Map size - standard (8 players).

Spoiler Victory Type / Civ Performance History :

Civ
4.5 Rank​
4.5 Winrate​
3.10 Rank​
3.10 Winrate​
3.6 Rank3.6 Winrate
3.2 Rank​
3.2 Winrate2.7 Rank2.7 Winrate
Austria
1​
0.33​
2​
0.26​
10.27
1​
0.3540.31
The Netherlands
2​
0.31​
13​
0.15​
320.08
21​
0.11120.19
China
3​
0.28​
19​
0.14​
80.18
2​
0.2720.4
The Inca
4​
0.28​
24​
0.11​
140.15
30​
0.07300
The Maya
5​
0.25​
1​
0.27​
340.07
28​
0.08110.19
Germany
6​
0.24​
6​
0.2​
50.25
4​
0.25140.17
Korea
7​
0.23​
3​
0.24​
110.17
22​
0.180.22
Morocco
8​
0.22​
26​
0.11​
150.14
16​
0.1590.21
The Ottomans
9​
0.22​
31​
0.07​
40.26
14​
0.1660.26
Songhai
10​
0.21​
20​
0.13​
260.09
12​
0.17260.07
Greece
11​
0.21​
10​
0.16​
60.24
13​
0.1770.22
Siam
12​
0.2​
14​
0.15​
210.11
17​
0.1430.35
Venice
13​
0.19​
21​
0.13​
410.03
19​
0.12220.12
Portugal
14​
0.18​
12​
0.15​
280.09
25​
0.09270.07
Poland
15​
0.17​
28​
0.09​
70.19
26​
0.0850.29
Sweden
16​
0.16​
32​
0.07​
240.1
31​
0.07410
Russia
17​
0.15​
9​
0.18​
300.08
37​
0.04370
The Celts
18​
0.15​
15​
0.15​
310.08
32​
0.07250.09
Byzantium
19​
0.13​
11​
0.16​
220.11
24​
0.1380
Babylon
20​
0.13​
8​
0.19​
130.15
34​
0.07150.16
Brazil
21​
0.12​
5​
0.2​
120.17
3​
0.27100.19
The Iroquois
23​
0.11​
22​
0.13​
230.11
11​
0.17180.13
Assyria
22​
0.11​
18​
0.14​
170.14
33​
0.07170.14
Arabia
24​
0.1​
4​
0.23​
20.26
7​
0.2310.44
India
25​
0.1​
17​
0.15​
100.17
20​
0.12190.13
Egypt
26​
0.08​
23​
0.12​
180.13
10​
0.18130.19
Ethiopia
27​
0.07​
37​
0.05​
190.13
15​
0.16160.14
America
28​
0.06​
42​
0​
270.09
8​
0.21390
Carthage
29​
0.05​
16​
0.15​
380.05
35​
0.06230.1
Denmark
30​
0.05​
36​
0.05​
360.06
42​
0350
Persia
31​
0.05​
25​
0.11​
330.07
23​
0.1340
Indonesia
32​
0.05​
39​
0.03​
160.14
5​
0.23360
Rome
33​
0.05​
29​
0.09​
90.17
38​
0.03200.12
The Zulus
34​
0.04​
35​
0.05​
200.12
18​
0.14400
England
35​
0.04​
30​
0.07​
290.09
29​
0.07280.06
France
36​
0.03​
27​
0.09​
430.01
36​
0.04430
The Aztecs
37​
0.02​
33​
0.07​
250.09
9​
0.21330
Japan
38​
0.02​
7​
0.2​
30.26
6​
0.23240.09
The Shoshone
39​
0.02​
43​
0​
350.06
40​
0310
Polynesia
40​
0.02​
34​
0.06​
390.05
39​
0210.12
Mongolia
41​
0.02​
41​
0.03​
370.05
43​
0320
The Huns
42​
0​
40​
0.03​
420.03
41​
0420
Spain
43​
0​
38​
0.05​
400.05
27​
0.08290.06

Victory share by version:
Victory Type
4.5​
3.10​
3.6​
3.2​
2.7​
Cultural
28.8​
26.2​
36.3​
50.7​
58.7​
Diplomatic
30.6​
25.2​
24​
22​
29.3​
Science
31.3​
37.9​
19.7​
14​
9.8​
Domination
8.3​
5.8​
13.7​
6.7​
0​
Time
1.1​
4.9​
6.3​
6.7​
2.2​


Spoiler Victory Types :

1708749120815.png



Spoiler Civilization Performance :

1708749205495.png


Rank​
Civ
Total Games​
Total Victories​
Winrate​
Culture​
Diplomatic​
Domination​
Science​
Time​
Average Victory Points​
1​
Austria
52​
17​
0.327​
8​
7​
0​
2​
0​
1967.85​
2​
The Netherlands
51​
16​
0.314​
2​
14​
0​
0​
0​
2075.76​
3​
China
50​
14​
0.28​
10​
0​
0​
4​
0​
2401.02​
4​
The Inca
47​
13​
0.277​
2​
1​
0​
10​
0​
3074.4​
5​
The Maya
51​
13​
0.255​
4​
5​
0​
4​
0​
2064.96​
6​
Germany
42​
10​
0.238​
3​
4​
0​
3​
0​
1592.12​
7​
Korea
48​
11​
0.229​
5​
1​
0​
5​
0​
2097.75​
8​
Morocco
63​
14​
0.222​
4​
8​
0​
2​
0​
1727.03​
9​
The Ottomans
45​
10​
0.222​
2​
3​
0​
5​
0​
2225.91​
10​
Songhai
61​
13​
0.213​
0​
3​
7​
3​
0​
3594.43​
11​
Greece
39​
8​
0.205​
2​
6​
0​
0​
0​
1373.92​
12​
Siam
46​
9​
0.196​
0​
8​
0​
1​
0​
1662.35​
13​
Venice
53​
10​
0.189​
4​
5​
0​
1​
0​
2068.11​
14​
Portugal
44​
8​
0.182​
3​
1​
0​
4​
0​
1586.14​
15​
Poland
53​
9​
0.17​
8​
0​
0​
1​
0​
1884.24​
16​
Sweden
63​
10​
0.159​
1​
2​
4​
3​
0​
3168.46​
17​
Russia
74​
11​
0.149​
1​
5​
0​
5​
0​
2468.39​
18​
The Celts
48​
7​
0.146​
4​
2​
0​
1​
0​
1678.06​
19​
Byzantium
53​
7​
0.132​
2​
2​
0​
3​
0​
1713.23​
20​
Babylon
47​
6​
0.128​
3​
0​
0​
3​
0​
1761.49​
21​
Brazil
50​
6​
0.12​
4​
0​
0​
2​
0​
1592.22​
22​
The Iroquois
53​
6​
0.113​
0​
1​
4​
1​
0​
2952.17​
23​
Assyria
53​
6​
0.113​
0​
1​
0​
5​
0​
1990​
24​
Arabia
50​
5​
0.1​
4​
0​
0​
1​
0​
1291.7​
25​
India
51​
5​
0.098​
2​
0​
0​
3​
0​
1512.29​
26​
Egypt
53​
4​
0.075​
4​
0​
0​
0​
0​
1126.66​
27​
Ethiopia
42​
3​
0.071​
0​
0​
0​
3​
0​
1532.14​
28​
America
50​
3​
0.06​
1​
0​
2​
0​
0​
2151.86​
29​
Carthage
55​
3​
0.055​
0​
2​
0​
1​
0​
1805.16​
30​
Denmark
61​
3​
0.049​
0​
0​
2​
0​
1​
2306.75​
31​
Persia
63​
3​
0.048​
0​
0​
2​
1​
0​
1872.6​
32​
Indonesia
44​
2​
0.045​
0​
1​
0​
1​
0​
1745.09​
33​
Rome
44​
2​
0.045​
0​
1​
1​
0​
0​
2094.45​
34​
The Zulus
50​
2​
0.04​
0​
0​
1​
1​
0​
2544.4​
35​
England
53​
2​
0.038​
0​
2​
0​
0​
0​
1613.83​
36​
France
61​
2​
0.033​
0​
0​
0​
1​
1​
1973.59​
37​
The Aztecs
48​
1​
0.021​
0​
1​
0​
0​
0​
2133.52​
38​
Japan
50​
1​
0.02​
1​
0​
0​
0​
0​
1737.92​
39​
The Shoshone
52​
1​
0.019​
1​
0​
0​
0​
0​
1567.58​
40​
Polynesia
54​
1​
0.019​
0​
1​
0​
0​
0​
1622.13​
41​
Mongolia
59​
1​
0.017​
0​
0​
0​
0​
1​
1786.39​
42​
The Huns
57​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
1654.89​
43​
Spain
41​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
1499.68​


For the next sections I wanted to explore how often the AI actually does really combat-wise but chooses an alternate path to victory, and what paths it chooses, so made up the concept of a "Pseudo-Domination victory", which is when a civ takes over most of the world but wins via a different victory type. I have arbitrarily defined it as when they win a non-domination victory while owning more than 2/3 of tiles and more than 2/3 of cities.

Spoiler Victory Types With Pseudo-Domination :

1708749802603.png



Spoiler Civilization Performance With Pseudo-Domination :

1708750347769.png



Spoiler Pseudo-Domination Wins Breakdown :

1708749951302.png



Spoiler List of Pseudo-Domination Games :

game_id
Turn​
Victory Civ
Owned Territory Percent​
Owned Cities Percent​
Victory Type
2024-02-18T01.43.55.417040
479​
Sweden
0.686901​
0.695652​
Science
2024-02-13T22.47.42.214257
402​
Carthage
0.809038​
0.808824​
Diplomatic
2024-02-15T15.48.43.378448
478​
Songhai
0.783427​
0.797101​
Diplomatic
2024-02-19T22.45.23.423739
404​
The Aztecs
0.835094​
0.836066​
Diplomatic
2024-02-22T04.08.52.449756
440​
China
0.715509​
0.689655​
Science
2024-02-13T06.08.21.893802
401​
Songhai
0.772095​
0.772727​
Diplomatic
2024-02-17T00.59.48.672601
411​
Siam
0.687927​
0.666667​
Diplomatic
2024-02-18T08.47.34.489964
490​
France
0.76601​
0.723077​
Science
2024-02-14T13.14.37.118004
392​
The Netherlands
0.742896​
0.71875​
Diplomatic
2024-02-22T01.14.24.233770
489​
The Zulus
0.895785​
0.875​
Science
2024-02-11T02.24.38.626345
490​
Songhai
0.814072​
0.828571​
Science
2024-02-22T14.08.00.477711
372​
Assyria
0.688261​
0.679245​
Diplomatic
2024-02-16T13.53.24.491920
436​
The Iroquois
0.745914​
0.75​
Science
2024-02-14T11.06.00.843948
392​
Rome
0.807518​
0.811594​
Diplomatic
2024-02-13T02.04.10.079379
481​
Sweden
0.865801​
0.87931​
Culture


Spoiler Per-Civ Combat Related Stats :

Rank​
Civ
Total Games​
Total Victories​
Winrate​
Cultural​
Diplomatic​
Domination​
Science​
Time​
Pseudo-Domination​
Average Win Owned Territory Percent​
Average Win Owned Cities Percent​
Average Victory Points​
1​
Austria
52​
17​
0.327​
8​
7​
0​
2​
0​
0​
0.193​
0.172​
1967.85​
2​
The Netherlands
51​
16​
0.314​
2​
13​
0​
0​
0​
1​
0.268​
0.256​
2075.76​
3​
China
50​
14​
0.28​
10​
0​
0​
3​
0​
1​
0.367​
0.351​
2401.02​
4​
The Inca
47​
13​
0.277​
2​
1​
0​
10​
0​
0​
0.307​
0.313​
3074.4​
5​
The Maya
51​
13​
0.255​
4​
5​
0​
4​
0​
0​
0.274​
0.27​
2064.96​
6​
Germany
42​
10​
0.238​
3​
4​
0​
3​
0​
0​
0.159​
0.146​
1592.12​
7​
Korea
48​
11​
0.229​
5​
1​
0​
5​
0​
0​
0.235​
0.238​
2097.75​
8​
Morocco
63​
14​
0.222​
4​
8​
0​
2​
0​
0​
0.174​
0.162​
1727.03​
9​
The Ottomans
45​
10​
0.222​
2​
3​
0​
5​
0​
0​
0.198​
0.197​
2225.91​
10​
Songhai
61​
13​
0.213​
0​
1​
7​
2​
0​
3​
0.789​
0.791​
3594.43​
11​
Greece
39​
8​
0.205​
2​
6​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0.214​
0.2​
1373.92​
12​
Siam
46​
9​
0.196​
0​
7​
0​
1​
0​
1​
0.216​
0.198​
1662.35​
13​
Venice
53​
10​
0.189​
4​
5​
0​
1​
0​
0​
0.216​
0.204​
2068.11​
14​
Portugal
44​
8​
0.182​
3​
1​
0​
4​
0​
0​
0.248​
0.242​
1586.14​
15​
Poland
53​
9​
0.17​
8​
0​
0​
1​
0​
0​
0.251​
0.235​
1884.24​
16​
Sweden
63​
10​
0.159​
0​
2​
4​
2​
0​
2​
0.701​
0.711​
3168.46​
17​
Russia
74​
11​
0.149​
1​
5​
0​
5​
0​
0​
0.381​
0.37​
2468.39​
18​
The Celts
48​
7​
0.146​
4​
2​
0​
1​
0​
0​
0.238​
0.237​
1678.06​
19​
Byzantium
53​
7​
0.132​
2​
2​
0​
3​
0​
0​
0.18​
0.166​
1713.23​
20​
Babylon
47​
6​
0.128​
3​
0​
0​
3​
0​
0​
0.237​
0.24​
1761.49​
21​
Brazil
50​
6​
0.12​
4​
0​
0​
2​
0​
0​
0.258​
0.252​
1592.22​
23​
The Iroquois
53​
6​
0.113​
0​
1​
4​
0​
0​
1​
0.751​
0.743​
2952.17​
22​
Assyria
53​
6​
0.113​
0​
0​
0​
5​
0​
1​
0.434​
0.432​
1990​
24​
Arabia
50​
5​
0.1​
4​
0​
0​
1​
0​
0​
0.149​
0.145​
1291.7​
25​
India
51​
5​
0.098​
2​
0​
0​
3​
0​
0​
0.24​
0.227​
1512.29​
26​
Egypt
53​
4​
0.075​
4​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0.143​
0.138​
1126.66​
27​
Ethiopia
42​
3​
0.071​
0​
0​
0​
3​
0​
0​
0.158​
0.167​
1532.14​
28​
America
50​
3​
0.06​
1​
0​
2​
0​
0​
0​
0.667​
0.664​
2151.86​
29​
Carthage
55​
3​
0.055​
0​
1​
0​
1​
0​
1​
0.511​
0.512​
1805.16​
30​
Denmark
61​
3​
0.049​
0​
0​
2​
0​
1​
0​
0.709​
0.72​
2306.75​
31​
Persia
63​
3​
0.048​
0​
0​
2​
1​
0​
0​
0.711​
0.715​
1872.6​
32​
Indonesia
44​
2​
0.045​
0​
1​
0​
1​
0​
0​
0.352​
0.343​
1745.09​
33​
Rome
44​
2​
0.045​
0​
0​
1​
0​
0​
1​
0.86​
0.868​
2094.45​
34​
The Zulus
50​
2​
0.04​
0​
0​
1​
0​
0​
1​
0.861​
0.849​
2544.4​
35​
England
53​
2​
0.038​
0​
2​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0.303​
0.303​
1613.83​
36​
France
61​
2​
0.033​
0​
0​
0​
0​
1​
1​
0.633​
0.615​
1973.59​
37​
The Aztecs
48​
1​
0.021​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
1​
0.835​
0.836​
2133.52​
38​
Japan
50​
1​
0.02​
1​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0.327​
0.295​
1737.92​
39​
The Shoshone
52​
1​
0.019​
1​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0.233​
0.246​
1567.58​
40​
Polynesia
54​
1​
0.019​
0​
1​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0.209​
0.182​
1622.13​
41​
Mongolia
59​
1​
0.017​
0​
0​
0​
0​
1​
0​
0.323​
0.354​
1786.39​
42​
The Huns
57​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
1654.89​
43​
Spain
41​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
1499.68​


Also, here is a video of the first 225 games so you can see a bit more qualitatively how AI games go on the territory front. If you love watching colors change on a map you are going to love this video lol
Spoiler replay compilation :




Based on these numbers and my experience with an emperor level game going on right now I would say the AI is pretty strong on a combat front, they are quite aggressive and take cities really well now I think. I've already heard rumblings of a Songhai nerf coming...
 
Last edited:
The pseudo don stat is interesting but still seems a minor portion of the winning civ strats.

I think the more interesting (and likely harder to get) stat is, if you assume your pseudo don as a win condition…how often would a civ actually have “won” over the civ that actually won the game?

I’m other words you are saying “this civ won, but they kind of won by a different method” but I want to know “this civ won, but if pseudo dom was a thing this other civ would have won”
 
Can I see statistics on the variations between versions?
It's not really practical to do so for most of the metrics, but here's a history of the big overview metrics, victory share and civ rank/winrate

Spoiler Victory Type / Civ Performance History :

Civ
4.5 Rank​
4.5 Winrate​
3.10 Rank​
3.10 Winrate​
3.6 Rank3.6 Winrate
3.2 Rank​
3.2 Winrate2.7 Rank2.7 Winrate
Austria
1​
0.33​
2​
0.26​
10.27
1​
0.3540.31
The Netherlands
2​
0.31​
13​
0.15​
320.08
21​
0.11120.19
China
3​
0.28​
19​
0.14​
80.18
2​
0.2720.4
The Inca
4​
0.28​
24​
0.11​
140.15
30​
0.07300
The Maya
5​
0.25​
1​
0.27​
340.07
28​
0.08110.19
Germany
6​
0.24​
6​
0.2​
50.25
4​
0.25140.17
Korea
7​
0.23​
3​
0.24​
110.17
22​
0.180.22
Morocco
8​
0.22​
26​
0.11​
150.14
16​
0.1590.21
The Ottomans
9​
0.22​
31​
0.07​
40.26
14​
0.1660.26
Songhai
10​
0.21​
20​
0.13​
260.09
12​
0.17260.07
Greece
11​
0.21​
10​
0.16​
60.24
13​
0.1770.22
Siam
12​
0.2​
14​
0.15​
210.11
17​
0.1430.35
Venice
13​
0.19​
21​
0.13​
410.03
19​
0.12220.12
Portugal
14​
0.18​
12​
0.15​
280.09
25​
0.09270.07
Poland
15​
0.17​
28​
0.09​
70.19
26​
0.0850.29
Sweden
16​
0.16​
32​
0.07​
240.1
31​
0.07410
Russia
17​
0.15​
9​
0.18​
300.08
37​
0.04370
The Celts
18​
0.15​
15​
0.15​
310.08
32​
0.07250.09
Byzantium
19​
0.13​
11​
0.16​
220.11
24​
0.1380
Babylon
20​
0.13​
8​
0.19​
130.15
34​
0.07150.16
Brazil
21​
0.12​
5​
0.2​
120.17
3​
0.27100.19
The Iroquois
23​
0.11​
22​
0.13​
230.11
11​
0.17180.13
Assyria
22​
0.11​
18​
0.14​
170.14
33​
0.07170.14
Arabia
24​
0.1​
4​
0.23​
20.26
7​
0.2310.44
India
25​
0.1​
17​
0.15​
100.17
20​
0.12190.13
Egypt
26​
0.08​
23​
0.12​
180.13
10​
0.18130.19
Ethiopia
27​
0.07​
37​
0.05​
190.13
15​
0.16160.14
America
28​
0.06​
42​
0​
270.09
8​
0.21390
Carthage
29​
0.05​
16​
0.15​
380.05
35​
0.06230.1
Denmark
30​
0.05​
36​
0.05​
360.06
42​
0350
Persia
31​
0.05​
25​
0.11​
330.07
23​
0.1340
Indonesia
32​
0.05​
39​
0.03​
160.14
5​
0.23360
Rome
33​
0.05​
29​
0.09​
90.17
38​
0.03200.12
The Zulus
34​
0.04​
35​
0.05​
200.12
18​
0.14400
England
35​
0.04​
30​
0.07​
290.09
29​
0.07280.06
France
36​
0.03​
27​
0.09​
430.01
36​
0.04430
The Aztecs
37​
0.02​
33​
0.07​
250.09
9​
0.21330
Japan
38​
0.02​
7​
0.2​
30.26
6​
0.23240.09
The Shoshone
39​
0.02​
43​
0​
350.06
40​
0310
Polynesia
40​
0.02​
34​
0.06​
390.05
39​
0210.12
Mongolia
41​
0.02​
41​
0.03​
370.05
43​
0320
The Huns
42​
0​
40​
0.03​
420.03
41​
0420
Spain
43​
0​
38​
0.05​
400.05
27​
0.08290.06

Victory share by version:
Victory Type
4.5​
3.10​
3.6​
3.2​
2.7​
Cultural
28.8​
26.2​
36.3​
50.7​
58.7​
Diplomatic
30.6​
25.2​
24​
22​
29.3​
Science
31.3​
37.9​
19.7​
14​
9.8​
Domination
8.3​
5.8​
13.7​
6.7​
0​
Time
1.1​
4.9​
6.3​
6.7​
2.2​


Kind of strange to me that Japan got absolutely gutted for being a top 10 civ while Austria remains arguably the best performer; I always found Austria way more annoying to play against personally
 
Interesting, many of the civs that the AI performs well as are the ones I consider among the weakest (China and Germany especially), but I guess I am not really up to date.

Btw, your first bar graph and the table for victory types doesnt match - for example it says in the table that china won 4 games with dom and 0 with science but in the chart it shows wins via science but not domination, unless I am misunderstanding of course.
 
Interesting, many of the civs that the AI performs well as are the ones I consider among the weakest (China and Germany especially), but I guess I am not really up to date.

Btw, your first bar graph and the table for victory types doesnt match - for example it says in the table that china won 4 games with dom and 0 with science but in the chart it shows wins via science but not domination, unless I am misunderstanding of course.
This time around the processing was done in a re-implementation of my original processing code in a new language/framework - somehow the science and domination victory column headings got swapped; I have fixed the affected tables.

Good catch, thanks for bringing it to my attention!
 
I've already heard rumblings of a Songhai nerf
There was a time i didnt know why is it so strong, untill i saw amphibious Knight on a river :)

Im learning to play on diety now, and im at the stage im trying to judge any tile basing on its relative value,
and value of a production is a lot, especially early game. You get like 8 tiles of river near your capitol, and you are set up, to dominate
your neighbours. So yea, those Tabya-s seems like almost OP, not sure why there is this additional 10% towards buildings there. Its already strong :)
It also gives early culture from being UB, which at this stage of the game for many civs could be 50% more culture in the expansion cities.

Also, here is a video of the first 225 games
Wow, is those strange triangles are offensive roads build by new automated workers :)? Impressed :)
And they clean after xD
Hmm, just wonder, do workers know, which roads were built by automated workers, so that whey dont remove roads that wer build by human?
I mean, i wonder what would happend to offensive roads build by human, is it a risk, that automated workers would remove it prematurely?
I have problem with current workers, that sometimes i build road not optimally, so that i could squize more villages between close cities, and i see sometimes, that
there are parralel roads build next to mine :) Just learned to accept , that i cant squize 3 villages, when on optimal road could be only 2 :)
 
We like war and we don’t care who knows.
Fighting my enemies and fighting my bros.

It’s my opinion that these win % graphs are basically the end goal that we had set out for ourselves more than a year ago. This looks like we have achieved terrific progress in balancing victory conditions relative to version where cultural victory was winning >70% of all games.

It is not desirable that domination victories take up any larger of a slice of the pie. In real game terms, winning via domination means eliminating players. More dead civs earlier in the game means less fun games. Having a more equitable distribution of win types is not a higher priority than fun games, so the fact that civs are winning at least some of the time via domination is more than adequate.
 
Last edited:
Is it just me, or is it kind of disturbing that Time only has a 1.1% chance of being a factor? Certain Civs are so powerful at certain things, that 90% of games are either Cultural, Diplomatic or Scientific victories. Domination and Time are virtually pointless.
 
Is it just me, or is it kind of disturbing that Time only has a 1.1% chance of being a factor?
It's just you.

Science victory should be achievable in the vast majority of games before turn 500. SV mainly requires that a civ research the entire tech tree, and is therefore a more dynamic version of the hard cutoff presented by a Time victory. Ideally, Time victory should not exist at all, because SV accomplishes the same time limit function, but in a more interactive way.

From multiple iterations of these tests, it has become clear that time victories are functionally domination victories, where a single militaristic civ has managed to cripple every other player on the map, but then decides to simply run the clock out instead of constructing spaceship parts, or conquering those last few cities.
 
Last edited:
It's just you.
Ok, gotta admit that's a concise reply and it kinda makes sense. I'm still getting back into Vox Populi after years of playing the same 3.something version, which absolutely ruined my gameplay, in hindsight. It's not good to stick with one version for too long. :lol:
 
These games are run on emperor difficulty where the AI has some considerable handicap bonuses. When run at lower difficulties, time victories make up a larger share of games.
 
These games are run on emperor difficulty where the AI has some considerable handicap bonuses. When run at lower difficulties, time victories make up a larger share of games.
Ok. I just thought it would make more sense for the proportions to be more equal, since I thought this was an auto-run of all-AI players.
 
The pseudo don stat is interesting but still seems a minor portion of the winning civ strats.

I think the more interesting (and likely harder to get) stat is, if you assume your pseudo don as a win condition…how often would a civ actually have “won” over the civ that actually won the game?

I’m other words you are saying “this civ won, but they kind of won by a different method” but I want to know “this civ won, but if pseudo dom was a thing this other civ would have won”
Preface: to avoid confusion with the previous Pseudo-Domination victory I am defining "Authority Victory" as a win on the first turn that a civ achieves ownership of at least 2/3 of territory and cities

Here's a list of all Authority Victories along with information of the actual win for that game
Spoiler Authority Victories :

game_idAuthority Victor
AV Turn​
Real Victor
Real Victory Turn​
Real Victory Type
2024-02-11T00.16.40.734983Songhai
236​
Songhai
251​
Domination
2024-02-13T08.17.49.416029Songhai
247​
Songhai
288​
Domination
2024-02-23T11.08.36.523679The Zulus
255​
The Zulus
296​
Domination
2024-02-11T07.50.41.420653Songhai
261​
Songhai
284​
Domination
2024-02-14T20.18.44.086194Songhai
263​
Songhai
313​
Domination
2024-02-13T22.10.53.420113Mongolia
276​
The Inca
412​
Science
2024-02-17T09.42.12.528199Denmark
285​
Denmark
327​
Domination
2024-02-21T08.58.43.676421The Iroquois
295​
The Iroquois
356​
Domination
2024-02-15T06.21.52.499974Rome
298​
Rome
327​
Domination
2024-02-21T11.29.21.372145Songhai
300​
Songhai
309​
Domination
2024-02-21T16.08.39.007682Denmark
310​
The Maya
418​
Science
2024-02-18T18.02.58.818224Songhai
317​
Songhai
324​
Domination
2024-02-15T07.48.32.299210Denmark
321​
Denmark
338​
Domination
2024-02-19T09.20.51.789619Persia
325​
Persia
353​
Domination
2024-02-15T15.48.43.378448Songhai
328​
Songhai
478​
Diplomatic
2024-02-16T13.53.24.491920The Iroquois
330​
The Iroquois
436​
Science
2024-02-14T11.06.00.843948Rome
339​
Rome
392​
Diplomatic
2024-02-10T20.52.41.547925Songhai
345​
Venice
363​
Diplomatic
2024-02-18T19.27.47.727314Persia
351​
Persia
376​
Domination
2024-02-22T11.50.54.546380Sweden
352​
Sweden
379​
Domination
2024-02-18T08.47.34.489964France
361​
France
490​
Science
2024-02-15T21.59.32.589359The Iroquois
362​
The Iroquois
429​
Domination
2024-02-22T09.33.07.499233Russia
362​
The Celts
408​
Cultural
2024-02-14T13.14.37.118004The Netherlands
362​
The Netherlands
392​
Diplomatic
2024-02-22T04.08.52.449756China
363​
China
440​
Science
2024-02-21T01.42.41.505082Sweden
369​
Sweden
403​
Domination
2024-02-16T00.32.14.502454Songhai
372​
Songhai
422​
Domination
2024-02-22T14.08.00.477711Assyria
372​
Assyria
372​
Diplomatic
2024-02-07T17.08.46.649795Sweden
373​
Sweden
400​
Domination
2024-02-13T10.54.39.989786Denmark
375​
Ethiopia
466​
Science
2024-02-13T02.04.10.079379Sweden
381​
Sweden
481​
Cultural
2024-02-19T22.45.23.423739The Aztecs
382​
The Aztecs
404​
Diplomatic
2024-02-13T06.08.21.893802Songhai
390​
Songhai
401​
Diplomatic
2024-02-22T01.14.24.233770The Zulus
393​
The Zulus
489​
Science
2024-02-13T22.47.42.214257Carthage
396​
Carthage
402​
Diplomatic
2024-02-19T10.58.54.629149Songhai
400​
Carthage
447​
Diplomatic
2024-02-12T00.55.06.623287America
401​
America
444​
Domination
2024-02-21T04.31.51.021538Denmark
402​
Persia
499​
Science
2024-02-15T09.25.01.958476The Iroquois
408​
The Iroquois
429​
Domination
2024-02-17T00.59.48.672601Siam
411​
Siam
411​
Diplomatic
2024-02-11T22.07.32.813727Denmark
412​
Austria
433​
Diplomatic
2024-02-11T02.24.38.626345Songhai
442​
Songhai
490​
Science
2024-02-17T05.06.08.745181Sweden
445​
Sweden
461​
Domination
2024-02-20T15.29.42.968048The Aztecs
449​
The Inca
449​
Science
2024-02-18T01.43.55.417040Sweden
472​
Sweden
479​
Science


Here's a list of failed domination games - the above list filtered for games where an Authority victory was achieved but someone else actually won the game
Spoiler failed domination games :

game_idAuthority Victor
AV Turn​
Real Victor
Real Victory Turn​
Real Victory Type
2024-02-13T22.10.53.420113Mongolia
276​
The Inca
412​
Science
2024-02-21T16.08.39.007682Denmark
310​
The Maya
418​
Science
2024-02-10T20.52.41.547925Songhai
345​
Venice
363​
Diplomatic
2024-02-22T09.33.07.499233Russia
362​
The Celts
408​
Cultural
2024-02-13T10.54.39.989786Denmark
375​
Ethiopia
466​
Science
2024-02-19T10.58.54.629149Songhai
400​
Carthage
447​
Diplomatic
2024-02-21T04.31.51.021538Denmark
402​
Persia
499​
Science
2024-02-11T22.07.32.813727Denmark
412​
Austria
433​
Diplomatic
2024-02-20T15.29.42.968048The Aztecs
449​
The Inca
449​
Science
 
There was a time i didnt know why is it so strong, untill i saw amphibious Knight on a river :)

Im learning to play on diety now, and im at the stage im trying to judge any tile basing on its relative value,
and value of a production is a lot, especially early game. You get like 8 tiles of river near your capitol, and you are set up, to dominate
your neighbours. So yea, those Tabya-s seems like almost OP, not sure why there is this additional 10% towards buildings there. Its already strong :)
It also gives early culture from being UB, which at this stage of the game for many civs could be 50% more culture in the expansion cities.


Wow, is those strange triangles are offensive roads build by new automated workers :)? Impressed :)
And they clean after xD
Hmm, just wonder, do workers know, which roads were built by automated workers, so that whey dont remove roads that wer build by human?
I mean, i wonder what would happend to offensive roads build by human, is it a risk, that automated workers would remove it prematurely?
I have problem with current workers, that sometimes i build road not optimally, so that i could squize more villages between close cities, and i see sometimes, that
there are parralel roads build next to mine :) Just learned to accept , that i cant squize 3 villages, when on optimal road could be only 2 :)
I have considered adding a flag for "human created roads", making it so automated workers don't remove them, and perhaps also highly prioritize using them for city connections.
 
Is it just me, or is it kind of disturbing that Time only has a 1.1% chance of being a factor? Certain Civs are so powerful at certain things, that 90% of games are either Cultural, Diplomatic or Scientific victories. Domination and Time are virtually pointless.
It's not just you. Time victory is the most "natural" victory. You win, because you've created the greatest empire.
The other victories: launching a rocket, winning a vote, being the most popular feel kinda little gamey, yet the game is being balanced around them anyway. :rolleyes:
 
It's not just you. Time victory is the most "natural" victory. You win, because you've created the greatest empire.
The other victories: launching a rocket, winning a vote, being the most popular feel kinda little gamey, yet the game is being balanced around them anyway. :rolleyes:
Unlike the victory points that are very "natural" and not gamey at all. Also, the world just stops at 2050 ad. very natural
 
Here is a graph showing win rates for all civs over time. I know it's a little overwhelming to parse at a glance, but I find this easier to read than the table.

I have also attached the excel sheet so people can play around with it, delete some lines and remove clutter, etc.
Spoiler :

1708966051528.png


If you use variance in the win rates as a heuristic for civ balance, then it has gotten worse from 3.1 to 4.5. We can see the lines converging closer together, and then splitting apart:

version2.73.23.63.14.5
winrate var
0.013651​
0.007013​
0.004736​
0.004541​
0.008441​
 

Attachments

  • Civ win rates over time.xlsx
    21.9 KB · Views: 3
It's not just you. Time victory is the most "natural" victory. You win, because you've created the greatest empire.
The other victories: launching a rocket, winning a vote, being the most popular feel kinda little gamey, yet the game is being balanced around them anyway. :rolleyes:
Go support Saga of Man in any way possible for you
 
Top Bottom