[Vote] (1-37) Tweaks For Brazil Wide Gameplay

[pineappledan]

Won't adding more yields on tiles make Brazil even more similar to Polynesia? Polynesia boosts Atolls and fishing boats, and has a big UI.
Based on the game results we are getting back, a nerf to Brazil's would be warranted without giving them a compensatory boost like GAP on tiles.

Pros for Wide Brazil:
- More GAPs from more cities, and your GA meter doesn't scale with empire size, so wide play results in more GAs overall.
- Wide makes use of the needs reduction. This part of the UI doesn't do much if you stay small.
- The Brazilwood Camp puts on tiles that can be converted into later, and UIs need land to be placed, so they tend to push wide.

Cons for Wide Brazil:
- Because of the empire size modifier, the instant tourism from GAs starting is weaker.
- The Bandeirantes' yields from exploration have more impact on a small empire because of % empire size modifiers.
- You only need 7 Brazilwood camps on empire to get enough copies of Brazilwood to trade with everyone on standard, so a large portion of the UI's power plateaus after only 2-3 cities' worth of BW camps

I don't get where this whole wide CV is not viable thing started popping up. I ran one that long ago just fine. Now maybe if we keep nerfing culture it could get to that point, but if tall CV is "crazy fast" wide CV is just "very quick"

I think that speed is a big part of the perception. small tall CV is faster, because it takes advantage of % empire size modifiers. Wide CV has more total , so it's more 'defensive'. It's safer and slower than the small CV empire. But as a result of being slower, wide CV is vulnerable to being beaten by other victory types.

The problem is that wide CV strat is almost pure defense until Hotels, which gives the first 25% converter, and then doesn't get another boost until atomic. We just took out a big wide tourism bonus last version as well: the Instant 4000 per city from the Arena/zoo/stadium construction yields. This is why I want to add a 25% / tile converter to Artistry, because tile-based culture is far too late and far too small right now, and it's not contributing to CVs. We have this entire mechanic that we basically aren't using right now.

 

[Rekk]

your GA meter doesn't scale with empire size

There is a small increase equal to +1% per city.

 

[Legen]

Won't adding more yields on tiles make Brazil even more similar to Polynesia? Polynesia boosts Atolls and fishing boats, and has a big UI.

Polynesia has a secondary militaristic capacity, leaning towards a defensive playstyle with the Moai (+20% CS within 3 tiles). That UI gives them a trait similar to Shoshone's and Japan's. Brazil has no extra militaristic capability, and its UU is even an utility one, instead of the usual combat focus of most UUs, Polynesia's included. This alone is a major differentiation between the two civs, and I never see people mentioning Polynesia's defensive capability as a restriction on how to balance either Shoshone or Japan.

Brazil and Polynesia also have very different terrain focuses in their UI, which pushes them to make different choices throughout the game, such as pantheon choice, tech priority, settling preference and even whom to antagonize. Brazil is more likely to antagonize civs like Aztecs, Iroquois and Maya, than civs like Carthage, England, Denmark and Spain.

Pros for Wide Brazil:
- More GAPs from more cities, and your GA meter doesn't scale with empire size, so wide play results in more GAs overall.
- Wide makes use of the needs reduction. This part of the UI doesn't do much if you stay small.

- More cities doesn't necessarily translate into more GAP, and can even mean less due to the increasing needs from empire size. And even when it is positive, it can be proportionally too small relative to other GAP sources. This point is a recurring one on why Brazil keeps favoring Tall in practice, the theory on why the UA should favor Wide doesn't match how it actually plays out.
- With the recent changes in patch 2.7, happiness is harsh even for Tall. You don't need to go wide in order to benefit from Carnival. For now, the -50% Needs is indifferent between Tall and Wide.

 

[Recursive]

Sponsored.

Proposal Sponsors: Recursive.

(Sponsors have indicated that they are able and willing to perform the code changes required for this proposal if the community votes Aye on it. Other coders are free to sponsor this as well. A proposal without a sponsor will not advance to the Voting Phase.)

 

[pineappledan]

I am against this proposal

• Brazil is already very strong and doesn't need a new ability, or a buff to its UI
• Brazil doesn't need more things to push it wide beyond the bonuses it already has. If you push more yields onto tiles you will just recreate Polynesia's playstyle
• removing the freshwater limitation makes the BW camp's build prerequisite identical to the Mayan Kuna
• The numbers proposed are completely out of whack. Compare to Ethiopia who gets +1 to strategics vs this 3GAP on luxuries. Strategics require techs to reveal and are much rarer than luxuries.

Gating the yields behind improvement will barely delay it, and it's new code for an ill-advised and unnecessary buff to an already top-tier civ

 

[Legen]

Brazil is already very strong and doesn't need a new ability, or a buff to its UI

The proposal is bound to end as a nerf, not a buff.

Reducing the UA from 30% to 20% means Brazil will need to generate 50% more GAP than normal to even out. The GAP on luxuries is unlikely to compete a combination of Artistry (including GAP on works of writing), beliefs, instant sources of GAP (e.g. Great Artist, National Monument) and, later on, late game policies and stadiums. Even without accounting world wonders, such as Taj Mahal and Cristo Redentor, the GAP on luxuries is really unlikely to match that 50%, even with a godly terrain start.

Another thing is that AI Pedro gets considerable GAP from its handicap triggers. On Emperor difficulty, the one used in the AI tests, the amount of GAP per trigger is as follows:

Ancient/Classical	Medieval	Renaissance	Industrial	Modern	Atomic	Information
72.5	139	234.5	359	512	695	906.5

And the GAP triggers are as follows:

• Enters a new era (3x normal bonus; Food, Gold, Golden Age Points, Science, Culture)
• Founds its original capital (Gold, Golden Age Points)
• Founds a new city, other than its capital (Food, Gold, Golden Age Points, Science, Culture)
• Wins a war (warscore 25+) (Food, Gold, Golden Age Points, Science, Culture)
• Constructs a World Wonder (Gold, Golden Age Points)
• Generates a Great Person (Gold, Golden Age Points)

This means AI Pedro (Emperor) has the equivalent of between 1.39 to 2.59 Pyramids or Splendor GAP procs on city founding and many historical events. This inflates AI Pedro's performance in the tests and plays a major role on your perception of Brazil's strength.

The conversion reduction from 30% to 20% is bound to hit AI Pedro especially hard. I expect a considerable nerf to this AI in future AI tests if this proposal passes.

• Brazil doesn't need more things to push it wide beyond the bonuses it already has. If you push more yields onto tiles you will just recreate Polynesia's playstyle
• removing the freshwater limitation makes the BW camp's build prerequisite identical to the Mayan Kuna

Brazilwood Camps already used to have only the forest/jungle restriction before, and neither Maya nor Polynesia were mentioned as complaints to the UI or playstyle at that time. People don't complain that Maya's playstyle is too similar to Polynesia's due to having a wide-friendly UI either.

The numbers proposed are completely out of whack. Compare to Ethiopia who gets +1 to strategics vs this 3GAP on luxuries. Strategics require techs to reveal and are much rarer than luxuries.

Improvements also require techs, and Ethiopia has a free early tech on their UA. Also, faith is one of the most valuable yields in the early game.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.