[Vote] (5-81) Change Drill Line Bonuses

[pineappledan]

I would not. Never.

As the chart above shows, 50% vs cities is on par with 20% damage reduction for combat results. So an extra level of Drill gives an equivalent bonus, and an extra 10% CS.

The city assault would need to give at least 60% vs cities to approach parity. Even then, it would be much less flexible and certainly not worth delaying Stalwart for.

 

[Rekk]

I would not. Never.

As the chart above shows, 50% vs cities is on par with 20% damage reduction for combat results. So an extra level of Drill gives an equivalent bonus, and an extra 10% CS.

The city assault would need to give at least 60% vs cities to approach parity. Even then, it would be much less flexible and certainly not worth delaying Stalwart for.

...it also deals extra % damage to Cities.

You've lost the lead that damage reduction can only be equivalent to %CS in the field of receiving damage. %CS also includes dealing damage, something damage reduction cannot do.

 

[pineappledan]

Based on your table, the extra damage doesn’t look that impressive. Only an extra 5 damage per hit at 50%. Would you delay 20% damage reduction and 10% CS and delay the T4 promotions for 50% city attack? Certainly looks like a bad trade to me.

 

[Rekk]

But make it 8 extra damage in exchange for -20% CS vs everything else, and the promotion becomes a good trade?

 

[Zuizgond]

Isn't 20% city damage reduction per level a bit too much then? Would 15% per drill level be more appropriate?

 

[pineappledan]

Isn't 20% city damage reduction per level a bit too much then? Would 15% per drill level be more appropriate?

I think that’s the play. Reduce damage reduction to 15% for each level of drill.
City assault gives either 75% vs cities or another 15% damage reduction & 50% vs cities

 

[Rekk]

20% is fine to start.

Start off with big numbers so we actually notice it.

 

[pineappledan]

20% reduction per level is roughly 30% higher than what we have now (60% vs 33%).

Do you think that melee units need to be stronger? If not, What should the drill line lose in recompense? They have a potential +108% vs cities; how much of that should they lose in exchange for 27% damage reduction?

 

[Stalker0]

I am going to do a little work tomorrow to show you all some more actual numbers (aka what these % translate in terms of actual damage). Its one of those proposals where I think a few good examples can definitely demonstrate for you if the proposal is worthwhile or not.

 

[AndreyK]

In my games (use large or huge maps on epic) I deal with units much more than with cities (especially I use siege against cities, as you suppose to).
So I think this proposal going to make use of units very complicated, and you have to pay much more attention to what units to use against other units and cities.
I believe that AI will have difficulty with what units to upgrade which way and how to use them.
Now we have drill and shock lines and we going to get 2 more lines out of drill - one against cities another what?

I don't like reduction of CS.

 

[azum4roll]

I think it's generally fine that melee units aren't too good when attacking cities, unless you take a very specialized promotion. The job belongs to siege units.

 

[ma_kuh]

It might be worth dropping from the shock line entirely.

Seconded on this approach. I already think generally speaking promo lines would be cleaner and feel more like progression paths if the leaves weren't shared as much.

 

[Stalker0]

Seconded on this approach. I already think generally speaking promo lines would be cleaner and feel more like progression paths if the leaves weren't shared as much.

I think there is a place for "swivel promotions" as i call them.... on ranged units.

Shrapnel Rounds is my favorite such promotion. I can take a ranged ship that has been a city killer, but shift them into a land unit fumigator in situations where I am now having to kill a lot more units than attack the city (which is a common occurrence with naval as the game moves on). this works because ranged units aren't super reliant on promotions for survivability.

However, it doesn't work as well for melee units. Simply put, a shock III melee unit is not going to be a city killer, even if I put City Assault (or forlorn hope) on it. You need that drill stack to make the unit effective, otherwise it takes so much damage from the city you might as well not bother. So I never take city assault off the shock line, its a waste of space imo. If you wanted to remove it, honestly I wouldn't even notice.

 

[ma_kuh]

I like that it gives certain promo builds a personality of sorts. Like Shock that deviates into Woodsman/Amphibious has a very different feel than both Drill III and Shock III builds (it just doesn't have a capstone to round it out, so as far as "builds" go it's maybe lacking). Having access to Woodsman via Drill, then, ruins some of the siloing that happens naturally from the promo tree.

With City Assault you're right, it isn't really great without the rest of the base tree, but I would just say that means removing it helps clean up a trap option anyway, and is still worthwhile.

 

[Anarcomu]

Zulu Buffalo Loins unlocks it (since it unlocks everything)

Just wanted to point out that Buffalo Loins does not unlock anything : Amphibious and Medic promotions still need you to snatch the shock line.
I think it's fie as it is, since it still unlocks -almost- everything.

 

[Stalker0]

When it comes to melee units versus a city, while we often look at damage numbers I found its longevity that's the key to the game. It doesn't matter if a melee unit gets in a powerful hit in the first attack, if it has to immediately retreat on the next round. A unit that can get in 2 or 3 attacks will ultimately be a much more effective city taker.

So with that in mind, I created an excel to help compare the old and new for this proposal. I have attached the excel for those that which to play around with.

I will highlight one example to use the excel. Lets look at a rifleman versus a CS I am thinking of attacking in my current game.

Rifleman with Drill II + CA

Attacker Base CS: The Rifleman has a Base CS of 50.

City Attack CS%: The drill + CA promotions give me a 103% bonus to attack the city.

City Defense CS%: Drill II gives me a +20% bonus. Then rifleman have an innate +20% versus all ranged attacks, and a +15% defense bonus in open terrain.

Damage Reduction %: City Assault gives me a 33% damage reduction against city attacks as well as the damage I take when doing a melee attack agaisnt them.

Starting Health: Rifleman got a bonus +20 health, so 120.

City CS/City RCS: Set by the city I am attacking.

So in this example, my unit can get in 4 attacks, before its expected that the city would finish the unit off. Since humans tend to want to preserve their units, this means we calculate the damage from 4 attacks as the "overall performance" of the unit, in this case: 149 damage dealt.

Now lets compare it with some other options.

Rifleman with Drill 3:

Rifleman with Proposal Drill 3:

Rifleman with Proposal Drill II + Forlorn Hope

So for this one example, we can see that the proposal Drill III would be significantly more effective than the current Drill III at taking on cities. Forlorn Hope would show a little bit more damage than Drill III, but frankly not so much that I might specialize a lot of units in it. I would probably go Drill III the vast majority of the time, and save Forlorn hope for something like an amphibious unit that doesn't take return fire, or once I've already taken Drill III.

We can also see that this version of Forlorn Hope is roughly equivalent to the current City Assault.

 

[Rekk]

I mean, the entire point is to make the Drill line more effective at fighting cities, so your example is expected.

 

[pineappledan]

proposal amended:
drill line now gives 15% city damage reduction per level
Forlorn hope dropped from shock line (but remains on buffalo line)
Forlorn Hope CS penalty lowered to -10%CS

-15% per level is plenty. At drill II, that's almost equivalent to the -33% that city assault gives now, with access to a further 15%. That level of reduction will be sufficient to be felt during a siege. As @Stalker0 's number above indicate, 20% reduction each level would increase the unit's ability to remain in the fight by so much that the unit's damage output would almost double. Empowering melee units to that degree is not the stated aim.

So for this one example, we can see that the proposal Drill III would be significantly more effective than the current Drill III at taking on cities. Forlorn Hope would show a little bit more damage than Drill III, but frankly not so much that I might specialize a lot of units in it. I would probably go Drill III the vast majority of the time, and save Forlorn hope for something like an amphibious unit that doesn't take return fire, or once I've already taken Drill III.

Yes, this is the stated aim.

Drill line feels too much like it needs the % damage reduction from city assault to be usable. Without the 33% damage reduction, you can't use the bonus vs cities on attack without receiving so much revenge damage that the unit has to immediately retreat. Drill needs to feel more self-contained, and City Assault needs to feel more like a nice, but still optional pick.

 

[pineappledan]

I can sponsor this

 

[azum4roll]

What @Stalker0 did not factor in is the attack from the garrison (and other units), which usually hurts more than the city ranged strike, especially when damage reduction (vs cities) is in effect.