(5-NS) Counterproposal: Remove scaling benefits from God of War

[DoveCDog]

Original Proposal: (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/5-05-nerf-god-of-war.684356/)

Current:
Receive faith on unit kills equal to 175% of unit CS
Melee units heal for 10hp on kill
+2 faith, +2 production from barracks

Proposal:
+4 GreatGeneral/AdmiralPoints on unit kills
+2 faith, +2 production from barracks
+1 faith, +1 production from improved horse and iron tiles

Rationale: God of War (along with Protection and Home) gives a scaling bonus, making it a much more attractive pantheon than the others. All the other pantheons give static bonuses, such as +2 gold for every trade route. These are negligible in the late game, but with God of War the bonus scales so much that it is substantive all game long. Additionally, the bonus from God of War matches the Aztec unique bonus, which is boring. I propose to remove the faith on kill and give a flat 4 Great General points instead. Since the unique Celtic pantheon gives +2 GG points per turn, I think +4 points per kill is fair for a general pantheon. +2 faith from building and +1 faith from resource is in line with other pantheon bonuses.

Implementation Difficulty: Medium. Yields for improvements on specific resources requires new code, and so do yields on unit kills that don't scale with the strength of the killed unit.

 

[azum4roll]

New code for boosting specific improved resources.

 

[Rekk]

No reason to single out iron and horse when it could just be strategic.

 

[DoveCDog]

No reason to single out iron and horse when it could just be strategic.

New code for boosting specific improved resources.

If there is a significant coding challenge involved I'd be fine to change it to: +1 faith, +1 production from every 2 worked improved strategic resources
But I would prefer not to do that; reading through the other pantheon beliefs on the wiki, it seems giving the bonus too all strategic resources would be too powerful in comparison.

 

[azum4roll]

If there is a significant coding challenge involved I'd be fine to change it to: +1 faith, +1 production from every 2 worked improved strategic resources
But I would prefer not to do that; reading through the other pantheon beliefs on the wiki, it seems giving the bonus too all strategic resources would be too powerful in comparison.

You can change it to just iron/horse without the improved requirement. That'll be existing code.

 

[pineappledan]

isn't giving a specific amount of a yield on kill, non-scaling, also new code?

I prefer the rework proposal that gives 1 per X military unit on empire.
Your anti-scaling rationale does not mention population scalers like ancestor worship or god-king. There is nothing wrong with some scaling pantheons; we can still have balanced pantheons with some that grow into late game.

 

[DoveCDog]

isn't giving a specific amount of a yield on kill, non-scaling, also new code?

I prefer the rework proposal that gives 1 per X military unit on empire.
Your anti-scaling rationale does not mention population scalers like ancestor worship or god-king. There is nothing wrong with some scaling pantheons; we can still have balanced pantheons with some that grow into late game.

Giving faith per unit doesn't actually encourage you to use your units - seems like something more for protection. But, even more importantly, the proposal for that creates a second pantheon that does the same thing as God of War does now.
My rationale does kinda mention population scalers. I talked about 2 gold per trade route - in the beginning of the game you have 1 trade route, by then end you'll have 10 or so. You go from +2 Gold to +20. +20 Gold at late game is nothing. Ancestor worship gives you +1 faith in early game and say about +30 faith in the late game. +30 faith in the late game is better, yes, but still it is not much. It is not much, because the # does not scale with era - You get +1 faith per 5 population, and population grows slower rather than faster the later you get. God of War goes from giving +15 faith per kill in the early game to giving over +100 faith per kill in the late game. If you need some 10 kills to buy a unit in the early game, you need the same 10 kills in the late game. And you also have to keep in mind you will be killing more units in the late game. That is most definitely not balanced - there is no reason not to take it if you plan on going to war. (EDIT: Actually, there is 1 reason - Goddess of Protection, which gives you the same healing benefit all game long).
+4 GG points per kill will also scale in the same way as Ancestor Worship - it is a flat yield that you will be earning more of the longer you play.

I've talked with another user privately, it looks like most of the ideas I can think of require new code here.
I'm going to keep the proposal as is and hope a DLL modder likes it enough to sponsor.

 

[pineappledan]

But, even more importantly, the proposal for that creates a second pantheon that does the same thing as God of War does now.

Yes, I'm saying I prefer that method, irrespective of his new Goddess of Victory proposal.

An aside, I will always oppose any proposal that adds GGeneral points as a yield. GGenerals have a method for being generated and it's through combat XP. We have 1 civ who has a trait ability that generates them through an alternative method. I hate, hate HATE these proposals that try to add more non-yields as yields.

My rationale does kinda mention population scalers. I talked about 2 gold per trade route - in the beginning of the game you have 1 trade route, by then end you'll have 10 or so. You go from +2 Gold to +20. +20 Gold at late game is nothing. Ancestor worship gives you +1 faith in early game and say about +30 faith in the late game.

and all the other pantheons generally scale with number of cities, and a bit of population so you can work the augmented tiles/improvements/resources.

 

[DoveCDog]

Yes, I'm saying I prefer that method, irrespective of his new Goddess of Victory proposal.

An aside, I will always oppose any proposal that adds GGeneral points as a yield. GGenerals have a method for being generated and it's through combat XP. We have 1 civ who has a trait ability that generates them through an alternative method. I hate, hate HATE these proposals that try to add more non-yields as yields.

and all the other pantheons generally scale with number of cities, and a bit of population so you can work the augmented tiles/improvements/resources.

Authority gives Culture + Science; Aztecs give Fatih + Gold; Celtics give Golden Age Points; I wanted to propose something unique so I went with GG. They come through Combat XP, and with this proposal combat will simply give some more points.

I agree with your last sentence, that is the same thing I am saying. You build another city, you will have let's say some +5 faith. This is negligible in the late game.

 

[pineappledan]

No, it's not unique. It's a deal-breaker, for me anyways. Trying to use GGPs as a yield makes your proposal worse.

Pantheons should stick to giving , as should 99% of the other beliefs, policies, and wonders. giving and isn't quirky or cool, it waters down the existing methods for generating those things and undermines the broader mechanic.

 

[DoveCDog]

No, it's not unique. It's a deal-breaker. Trying to use GGPs as a yield makes your proposal worse.

Pantheons should stick to giving , as should 99% of the other beliefs, policies, and wonders. giving and isn't quirky or cool, it waters down the existing methods for generating that thing and undermines the broader mechanic. Great General Points are not meant to be treated as a yield like this. From a historical game theming perspective, GGPs have no real-world equivalent, they aren't like food, they are an abstracted game point for tallying a game bucket. Using them like this cheapens both the theme and the mechanic.

There are other pantheons which give Great Artist Points, Great Engineer Points, and other Great People Points. I'd agree with you if those beliefs didn't exist, but as is there is nothing special about Great Generals that should have them be treated differently.

 

[pineappledan]

I talked about 2 gold per trade route - in the beginning of the game you have 1 trade route, by then end you'll have 10 or so. You go from +2 Gold to +20. +20 Gold at late game is nothing. Ancestor worship gives you +1 faith in early game and say about +30 faith in the late game. +30 faith in the late game is better, yes, but still it is not much. It is not much, because the # does not scale with era - You get +1 faith per 5 population, and population grows slower rather than faster the later you get. God of War goes from giving +15 faith per kill in the early game to giving over +100 faith per kill in the late game. If you need some 10 kills to buy a unit in the early game, you need the same 10 kills in the late game.

You use the word scaling without rigor or consistency. Ancestor worship scales with the number of cities you have and with the population in those cities, so it scales in 2 ways. Trade route cap increases via some tech, policy and wonder progression, irrespective of empire size or population. From your description, Your flat yields on kill might scale with armies getting bigger and kills getting more frequent as the game progresses.

Your example of ancestor worship scaling from 1 yield to 30 per city per turn makes no sense. You say that’s worse than 15 faith on kills scaling to 100 in the late game, but something increasing 30-fold is obviously more than increasing 7-fold over the course of the game. Yes, the current god of war scales both with the combat strength of units and with increased army size/kill rate in the late game. No, I don’t think that’s necessarily a problem, and your example does not clarify that at all.

The problem with the current god of war is that it is too strong at ALL stages of the game, not just that it scales into late game. I think you have misdiagnosed the problem.

There are other pantheons which give Great Artist Points, Great Engineer Points, and other Great People Points. I'd agree with you if those beliefs didn't exist, but as is there is nothing special about Great Generals that should have them be treated differently.

Regardless, It’s a non-starter for me. We need fewer abilities like these, not more.

 

[DoveCDog]

You use the word scaling without rigor or consistency. Ancestor worship scales with the number of cities you have and with the population in those cities, so it scales in 2 ways. Trade route cap increases via some tech, policy and wonder progression, irrespective of empire size or population. From your description, Your flat yields on kill might scale with armies getting bigger and kills getting more frequent as the game progresses.

Your example of ancestor worship scaling from 1 yield to 30 per city per turn makes no sense. You say that’s worse than 15 faith on kills scaling to 100 in the late game, but something increasing 30-fold is obviously more than increasing 7-fold over the course of the game. Yes, the current god of war scales both with the combat strength of units and with increased army size/kill rate in the late game. No, I don’t think that’s necessarily a problem, and your example does not clarify that at all.

The problem with the current god of war is that it is too strong at ALL stages of the game, not just that it scales into late game. I think you have misdiagnosed the problem.


Regardless, It’s a non-starter for me. We need fewer abilities like these, not more.

You misunderstand my point. I am being abstract with the word on purpose because I don't want to narrow it down to cities or population. My point is to compare the yields in early game vs late game.


1 faith per turn in the early game is significant when Shrine only gives +2. 30 faith per turn is not significant in the late game when you are earning over 300 a turn.
In comparison, with God of War you are always getting good yields. 15 faith is big in the early game, just like 100 faith is big in the late game. It is not about the x multiplier, it is about how useful the belief is. If I choose Ancestor Worship I know it will be good in the early game and not impactful in the late game. If I choose God of War I know it will be a huge boost all game long.
The current God of War scaling with kill rate is a problem because it gives even more yields. Right, now we are jumping from say 15 faith per turn of war to 300 faith per turn of war.

With my proposal, God of War will scale primarily on kill rate. So, just like other pantheons scale slightly based on city count, or trade route count, or population count - God of War would scale slightly based on kill rate. However, just like giving +2 gold per trade route is negligible in the late game, so too is +4 Great General Points. Right, if we are getting +12 Great General points per turn of war in the late game, that is not significant. This is the point I've been trying to make.


I haven't misdiagnosed the problem. Look, God of War is too strong in all stages of the game. I agree. Let's look at the other pantheons - they are strong in the early game and weak in the late game. I propose to change God of War to be likewise. I don't think that is so problematic.

 

[pineappledan]

I haven't misdiagnosed the problem. Look, God of War is too strong in all stages of the game.

Yes, and the largest contributing factor to that is the 10 heal on kills. Not the Faith scaling. You said as much w.r.t. goddess of protection, and how that healing bonus stays relevant for the entire game.
Faith on kills scaling is nice, but it's not a serious issue unless the scaling gets to be as out of control as something like the Teocalli, which scales in 3 different ways (per city, per era, more units to kill in late game). The value of faith declines considerably in late game, and GoWar's faith output doesn't keep up with the rising costs to the degree you are implying. Though if the changes to building and military unit purchase cost scaling from another proposal in this congress goes through, that could certainly be more true in the future.

I agree. Let's look at the other pantheons - they are strong in the early game and weak in the late game.

We have some beliefs, such as God-King, that explicitly are designed around being weak in early game but strong in late game.

Also, I should point out that the +1 to strategic resources is almost identical to Ethiopia's existing UA ability. Major overlap there.

 

[DoveCDog]

Yes, and the largest contributing factor to that is the 10 heal on kills. Not the Faith scaling.
Faith on kills scaling is nice, but it's not a serious issue unless the scaling gets to be as out of control as something like the Teocalli, which scales in 3 different ways (per city, per era, more units to kill in late game). The value of faith declines considerably in late game, and GoWar's faith output doesn't keep up with the rising costs to the degree you are implying. Though if the changes to building and military unit purchase cost scaling from another proposal in this congress goes through, that could certainly be more true in the future.

We have some beliefs, such as God-King, that explicitly are designed around being weak in early game but strong in late game.

Also, I should point out that the +1 to strategic resources is almost identical to Ethiopia's existing UA ability. Major overlap there.

Just because Teocalli is even more broken doesn't mean we should leave God of War broken as well.
God-King is not strong in the late game. I don't want to retype my previous post again to explain why.
The existing God of war overlaps with Aztec's UA anyway. And not only does it overlap, it actually gives stronger faith yields.

Look, suffice it to say I disagree with you, I think the scalingn faith on kill is way too strong, I think faith costs don't rise anywhere near enough to compensate, and I propose this pantheon to be changed. We'll see what happens.

 

[DoveCDog]

Implementation Difficulty: Medium. ... and so do yields on unit kills that don't scale with the strength of the killed unit.

Just a thought, I don't know if it is possible, but it might be easier to make unit kills scale with CS according to the formula:

4 + (0 * CS)

This way it could use the code that scales with unit strength while also giving 4 points each time.

 

[axatin]

while also giving 4 points each time.

that's exactly what's currently not possible. All yields on unit kills are multiplied with the combat strength of the killed unit, there's no support for fixed values.

 

[Stalker0]

My concern wjtb this proposal is I don’t know if it’s found-able on most starts, i think the faith loss difference is pretty extreme

 

[DoveCDog]

My concern wjtb this proposal is I don’t know if it’s found-able on most starts, i think the faith loss difference is pretty extreme

The faith loss is extreme, but only because it is so overpowering currently. Right, a simple pantheon gives more faith than Aztec's UA!

If you look at the other pantheons, +2 faith from building +1 faith from improved tile is still on the high end. God of War would still be really strong, just not a complete no-brainer as it is right now.

 

[Stalker0]

The faith loss is extreme, but only because it is so overpowering currently. Right, a simple pantheon gives more faith than Aztec's UA!

If you look at the other pantheons, +2 faith from building +1 faith from improved tile is still on the high end. God of War would still be really strong, just not a complete no-brainer as it is right now.

So ancestor worship is often a baseline for assessment, a decent but not amazing pantheon that can normally found (though I normally take it as a Stonehenge opener myself)

Ancestor worship for founding is basically a council first play with an extra 1 per city after a bit of growth.

So would this pantheon meet or beat that? It’s probably going to depend on the horses, Iron usually takes too long.

If it was unimproved horses I might see it, as that would activate quicker than ancestor worship…but improved horses…tall order. Combine with barracks take longer than councils to get online, so even slower faith. I think it’s goijg to be very tough for an authority player to found with it unless they are celts or aztecs.

Weirdly this might actually become a tradition pantheon. Likely found-able with their +3 extra bonuse…good production might be considered similar to tutelary. Also the extra GGs are good for tradition who always need more supply and citadels for defense