.

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Getting a whole era ahead feels pretty difficult to do. You basically have to both fight against eurkas and the fact the later techs get more expensive.

Of course this is quite unlikely, science has just been too overwhelmingly important in past civ games. But that just stresses the point than any bonus to science is more powerful than bonuses to anything else

I don't think that is entirely correct. In civilization V there are some key buildings and key units and unlocking these as early as possible have been important but I have yet to see any similar key building in civilization VI as the university was in civilization V or a unit as important as artillery.

Rading is far more powerful and important in Civilization VI. While you may assume Brazil is a good techer, what if Schythia raids them and destroy all their districts then Brazil will likely lose the tech race and the game.

The unique units I have seen so far have all been pretty much game changers, I would say a unique unit is maybe worth about as much as being 0.5 to 1 era ahead.

 

[Sansa_Stark]

The eureka bonus for China doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be going through science faster.

It can also mean that you have the rate of discovering technologies while putting far less effort/energy/resources into science. In fact, the best strategy as China might be to focus on anything but science while still not falling behind.

Of course this is quite unlikely, science has just been too overwhelmingly important in past civ games. But that just stresses the point than any bonus to science is more powerful than bonuses to anything else. Who cares if your UU is amazing if I'm an era ahead in the tech tree?

This is excellent idea. I really think that going too fast might significantly reduce the benefit, so going with same speed as usually while focusing on other things is amazing idea.

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

The eureka bonus for China doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be going through science faster.

It can also mean that you have the rate of discovering technologies while putting far less effort/energy/resources into science. In fact, the best strategy as China might be to focus on anything but science while still not falling behind.

Of course this is quite unlikely, science has just been too overwhelmingly important in past civ games. But that just stresses the point than any bonus to science is more powerful than bonuses to anything else. Who cares if your UU is amazing if I'm an era ahead in the tech tree?

Keshiks and camel archers were pretty dominant well into the Renaissance. Horse archers and battering rams still functioned pretty well in the medieval. Rushing civil service for Impis worked pretty well against higher tech civs.

Sometimes UUs did trump science, especially early ones when it was harder to have a large tech lead.

 

[Matthew.]

Not India

 

[CaiusDrewart]

Not India

Yeah, I get that faith is going to be more important in this game than it was in Civ V... but still, India does not exactly look like a powerhouse.

 

[AvantInvader]

I have full confidence each individual civilization will be perfectly and exquisitely balanced to a T. Each with their own disparate and complex strengths and weakness, that provide a fun, challenging and unique playstyle. Therefore, I assert they are all equally strong and cannot be compared by power, but only by what best fits an individual's play style and preferences.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

It is true that the individuals playpreference will greatly effect how strong the civ will be.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

I have full confidence each individual civilization will be perfectly and exquisitely balanced to a T. Each with their own disparate and complex strengths and weakness, that provide a fun, challenging and unique playstyle. Therefore, I assert they are all equally strong and cannot be compared by power, but only by what best fits an individual's play style and preferences.

While I am sure that each Civ will be playable and have some interesting things going for it, what on earth in the history of the civilization series gives you confidence that "each individual civilization will be perfectly and exquisitely balanced to a T?"

I fondly remember how vanilla Civ V's Ottomans had a UA that gave them a 50% chance of converting barbarian naval units. That was the UA! A 50% chance! Of converting barbarian naval units!

If anything, I think the Civ VI civs might have worse initial balance problems than Civ V, because there are so many more bonuses to juggle.

Don't interpret this as a complaint though--I for one don't mind having some Civs be noticeably stronger than others. As long as they're all interesting and none make the game too easy, some power disparities are fine.

 

[LUDzik]

my civ's rating for now. Feel free to comment!

T I E R 1

CHINA – some free science? Why not! Better builders lead not only to one of the best early game wonder creator here, but also helps for more grow, …and more eurekas (build 2 mines, build 3 farms etc). All that with no effort. Great wall seems as late game turist-oriented stuff.

EGYPT – one of the civ that we forgot i think. Whole-game lasting powerful bonus to wonders is no joke. You could not only build them faster, but also without required terain! Chariots are one of the rare fast moving shooters in the early game, and minor trade bonus helps in peaceful wonder-oriented game afterwards. Important thing – all that bunuses kicks in in the ancent tiems and you can roll.

SCYTHS – Top candidate for a warmonger imba. Early access to fast moving, shooting unit with no horses needed and can be build in pairs, have heal, do not lose strength when… Enough!

GERMANY – Free military card slot alone is nearly as strong as all Americas bonuses. On top of that we will have boosts to our smaller cities thanks to more districts, more production with accesible hansa and a passive bonus while fighting city state units.

BRAZIL – great bonuses to jungles are lowered by the fact that jungle is hard terrain for a start. Refundation on the great person seems a big change, so we have civ with 2 real effects!


T I E R 2

FRANCE – top tier wonder builder with universal chateau tile improvement, seems as a worse Egypt. Period.

AMERICA – minor flat continent strength bonus is most significant thing here. From videos we know it gives America an edge in early game. We dont know much about legacy bonuses, but it seems it is also a minor, but universal bonus.

AZTECS – similar to America universal combat bonus. The difference – this one is simply better, and long-lasting. Makeing slaves, boosting districts speed with sacing builders even with eagle warriors seems like a fun addidition, but with no huge impact here.

JAPAN – unimportant bonus on the land and in same moment more important combat bonus (flat and whole-game!) on shallow waters. Adjency bonus to districs might be strong on the small islands, but otherwise it is not a game-breaker. For now low-mid civ. Ps. Beware samurai on the coastal tile 


T I E R 3

SPAIN – As much as i love the design, i have problems with rate it. Numbers of bonuses is huge. Conquistador seems an option for an imba. Faster fleets are a mistery. Power of inter-continental trade also. Missions are limited, but seems more powerful than other faith-oriented improvements. Bonus towards heretics seems a slightly worse than America bonus. I think top of tier 3 for now.

ENGLAND – Super civ design. Advantages restricted to mid and late game and specific strategy. Top tier on archipelago and continents games, but low tier for now for non-universality. W don’t know details about royal navy dock, we dont know how cultural victory is viable.

INDIA – Flat bonus to religion seems pretty good. More than one followers believe in the cities could be powerful, but need a lot of micromanagement. Civilisation crafted towards peaceful and growth-based game. Can jump out of trash civ tier if faith bonus is accesible.

 

[Atlas627]

The eureka bonus for China doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be going through science faster.

It can also mean that you have the rate of discovering technologies while putting far less effort/energy/resources into science. In fact, the best strategy as China might be to focus on anything but science while still not falling behind.

Of course this is quite unlikely, science has just been too overwhelmingly important in past civ games. But that just stresses the point than any bonus to science is more powerful than bonuses to anything else. Who cares if your UU is amazing if I'm an era ahead in the tech tree?

Yes, this was how I was looking at it.

The Eureka system as a whole is a way to convert non-science yields to science on a situational, case-by-case basis. Better Eurekas means China has even more incentive to do non-science things and get free science along the way (and culture for Inspirations).

I think China should be played like a large economic beast, with high food, production, and gold output. Crank out wonders, build whatever gets you eurekas, and just keep getting bigger without falling behind in tech. Then when you get to mid/late game, pivot toward whichever strategy your opponents will be worst at defending against.

 

[Plus Ultra]

I think you guys are understimating India.

Imagine that an experienced player can get all 5 follower beliefs in their cities (standard map)... such as:

Feed the World: Shrines and Temples provide Food equal to their intrinsic Faith output.
Reliquaries: Relics have triple yield of both Faith and Tourism
Religious Community: Shrines and Temples each provide +1 Housing
Work Ethic: +1 Production for each follower
Zen Meditation: +1 Amenity in cities with 2 specialty districts

Combine those bonuses with their UB which gives food and housing... and factor in the significant extra faith from their UA (Oh, and UB too if placed adjacent to a Holy Site) and boom. You've got huge population and tons of faith to buy great scientists.

Science victory anyone?

 

[AvantInvader]

While I am sure that each Civ will be playable and have some interesting things going for it, what on earth in the history of the civilization series gives you confidence that "each individual civilization will be perfectly and exquisitely balanced to a T?"

Yes, sorry, I was being a bit facetious. I know it's impossible to detect on the internet, but I also think it's quite impossible to have a real discussion about the balance of individual Civs months before the release of a game we haven't even played; we've only seen Prince difficulty, and many many things are likely to change before release.

I actually do believe (based on the limited evidence) that no Civ will be as useless as the Vanilla CiV Ottomans (although their UUs were pretty good compared to some). I think the developers are actually paying more attention to balance than in the previous game in the series. But, even more crucial: they are paying more attention to what players look for in a Civ's abilities and trying to give people more of what they want. Furthermore, with the sheer amount of unique assets each Civ is getting, it seems likely at least one aspect will be rewarding enough to make the Civ not terrible. Unfortunately, it also seems likely we get a Civ with altogether too much positives and exploitable power, but we shall see.

In the end, I agree, we aren't likely to see anything resembling to perfect balance, but that is really ok, especially at release.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

Yes, sorry, I was being a bit facetious. I know it's impossible to detect on the internet, but I also think it's quite impossible to have a real discussion about the balance of individual Civs months before the release of a game we haven't even played; we've only seen Prince difficulty, and many many things are likely to change before release.

I actually do believe (based on the limited evidence) that no Civ will be as useless as the Vanilla CiV Ottomans (although their UUs were pretty good compared to some). I think the developers are actually paying more attention to balance than in the previous game in the series. But, even more crucial: they are paying more attention to what players look for in a Civ's abilities and trying to give people more of what they want. Furthermore, with the sheer amount of unique assets each Civ is getting, it seems likely at least one aspect will be rewarding enough to make the Civ not terrible. Unfortunately, it also seems likely we get a Civ with altogether too much positives and exploitable power, but we shall see.

In the end, I agree, we aren't likely to see anything resembling to perfect balance, but that is really ok, especially at release.

Haha, gotcha.

I think you're right--while on the one hand, the large number of bonuses might make it harder to balance the Civs, on the other hand, if each Civ has five or six bonuses, we are very unlikely to get anything totally pathetic, like vanilla Civ V Ottomans or Japan.

And it's of course true that we're just guessing as to which Civs will be the strongest, and it's also true that the developers could radically change these Civs (if I recall correctly, England's first video didn't mention its free units for settled cities). Still, we're veteran Civ players here, and we know how Civ tends to work, so we can make some informed speculation. E.g., we know that late UUs have rarely been top tier, so there's good reason to be skeptical about stuff like America's Mustang. We know that large early-game science bonuses tend to be powerful (see the Civ IV Financial and Philosophical traits, or Civ V's Babylon), so there's good reason to be impressed by Civ VI Brazil.

(By the way, I was never crazy about Civ V Ottoman's UUs. A pretty decent musket and a minor upgrade to a lancer? Meh.)

 

[Plus Ultra]

The problem is that Gandhi gets a bonus for *other civs doing well*. His faith bonus is at it's maximum when all religions have been founded. But that's far too late for the bonus, you want to be the one to found a religion first so you can pick the beliefs you want. Essentially, what he has is a rubber-band ability - he'll be good at catching up but nowhere near as potent when it comes to actually winning.

I see your point, dont get me wrong, but in my experience founding a religion has always been easy enough if I tried.

 

[Atlas627]

The problem is that Gandhi gets a bonus for *other civs doing well*. His faith bonus is at it's maximum when all religions have been founded. But that's far too late for the bonus, you want to be the one to found a religion first so you can pick the beliefs you want. Essentially, what he has is a rubber-band ability - he'll be good at catching up but nowhere near as potent when it comes to actually winning.

You can still found a religion first and pick the beliefs you want, since founding a religion doesn't come from faith production.

You also can get all of the Follower beliefs chosen in the game, so picking the beliefs you want is again less of a big deal.

Faith is also clearly used for a lot of things other than Religion itself. Great People in all categories is a great use for Faith. Producing a lot of faith while not investing much into religion might be fantastic.

And that's one of 4 abilities. The Varu looks really strong, the Stepwell looks amazing, and Gandhi still discourages people from attacking him.

Looks better than America and England to me.

 

[joncnunn]

On India, also note it's unique tile improvement, providing all three of faith/food/housing. With adjacency bonuses for Holy Shrine and Farms.

So place their unique tile improvement between the shrine & farmland for a big bonus. Food bonuses = more population, which means more of everything; and this portion doesn't require convening the AI to send missionaries.

 

[spfun]

I quite like India, I'll probably try them out in my second game. I like tall supercity playstyle.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

So much have changed, it is impossible to say how strong the civs are. One reason why early science was so good in civilization V was that science lead to science but that don't exactly seems to be the case in civ VI. Expansion penalties have changed will greatly effect the game.

 

[nzcamel]

France, India, and Egypt are my picks at the mo. With Germany close behind.

 

[bite]

From the first impression, if you can get religions to spread to you India could be very powerful