.

[Matthew.]

It is not a random role like it was in civilization V, if you settle 30 cities on a different continent you get 30 units and the other part of that ability is the access to the redcoat.

30 units is WAY overkill, especially if they are melee units. Nor are you going to settle 30 cities.

In about 100% of cases I would be happy to get a free unit, I guess you don't like aggressive play

Quite the opposite actually. And you know what? In Civ 5, I allied mercantile and culture city-states, not military. I typically went order or autocracy, not freedom for the free 6 legionnaires. Getting units on the board was never the problem for aggressive play, it was about getting the bonuses to support your warmongering empire.

I repeat, the free unit is of low value. It is something, but it simply doesn't compare to a bonus elsewhere. Anywhere. I'd rather have an extra military card, even it being a minor bonus.

This is maybe true in older civilization games but in civilization VI you have two tech trees and one is based on culture.

And in 5 we had policies, also gained by culture. And also extremely important in keeping aggressive empires running. How many warmongers focused on culture? Most wouldn't even build museums, let alone opera houses.

But that is 5. Of course 6 will be different, but it is pure speculation that it is going to be radically different enough that aggressive warmongers will want to focus on culture any more so than 5. I've not seen any signs indicating, so at this point it is blind hope. The realistic angle is it will end up being that same weird synergy of France in Civ 5, and because of it, end up as lower tier.

Actually the museum and Britain's other uniques synergize pretty well with an aggressive CV where you steal wonders and works from other civs through conquest. It feels kind of like Assyria and their library.

I see that synergy but I still think Germany is quite a bit better. Surprised at the discussion actually.

In theory, sure. In practice, it likely won't appeal to a lot of players. As I mentioned, France in Civ 5 had a similar set up. You get a mid-game melee unit and the option to go conquer lands to put their great works in your capital museums and wonders. Placing down a chateaux in conquered lands where applicable to further increase tourism gains. Yet BNW France just wasn't that well received. People who played culture games never flocked towards the Civ, and people who just liked to play aggressive warmonger games had no reason to play France either.

The one thing right in this comparison of Civ 6 Germany and England is that the museum bonus is going to be what sets the two apart. Though I remain HIGHLY skeptical that aggressive warmonger types are going to favor England for the random free melee unit and museum bonuses. Perhaps for the naval bonuses, but not for the free unit and museum bonuses.

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

In theory, sure. In practice, it likely won't appeal to a lot of players. As I mentioned, France in Civ 5 had a similar set up. You get a mid-game melee unit and the option to go conquer lands to put their great works in your capital museums and wonders. Placing down a chateaux in conquered lands where applicable to further increase tourism gains. Yet BNW France just wasn't that well received. People who played culture games never flocked towards the Civ, and people who just liked to play aggressive warmonger games had no reason to play France either.

The one thing right in this comparison of Civ 6 Germany and England is that the museum bonus is going to be what sets the two apart. Though I remain HIGHLY skeptical that aggressive warmonger types are going to favor England for the random free melee unit and museum bonuses. Perhaps for the naval bonuses, but not for the free unit and museum bonuses.

Oh, was just pointing out that there really is some synergy between a cultural ub and warmonger bonuses. Won quite a few CVs with some heavy conquest post-BNW. Still right on board with placing Germany over Britain.

The better discussion would be Germany v Brazil. I think Brazil is poised to get a quick head start with his adjacency bonuses but unless we're overestimating the extra district I think Germany is better equipped for the long haul.

Something I think people overlook with the extra district is the housing that buildings provide. German cities will have access to more housing earlier and at every tier of city development. With enough amenities and food their cities will grow faster without a doubt.

 

[dturtle1]

I repeat, the free unit is of low value. It is something, but it simply doesn't compare to a bonus elsewhere. Anywhere. I'd rather have an extra military card, even it being a minor bonus.

The bonus also includes the Redcoat unique unit.

Victoria Leader ability is you get a free current melee unit every time you settle a city PLUS you get her Redcoat Unit. Barbarossa Leader ability is just the free Military Card
Also the value is not strictly the free unit, it is not having to build one when you are colonising and aggressively expanding.

 

[stealth_nsk]

The bonus also includes the Redcoat unique unit.

Victoria Leader ability is you get a free current melee unit every time you settle a city PLUS you get her Redcoat Unit. Barbarossa Leader ability is just the free Military Card
Also the value is not strictly the free unit, it is not having to build one when you are colonising and aggressively expanding.

Barbarossa leader ability is military card and bonus vs. city-state units.

 

[dturtle1]

Ahh true, missed that . I still find the Victoria and Barbarossa leader bonus as roughly equal and the Civ's themselves as roughly equal. Different, but equal in strength. It will be interesting to come back at this conservation in 3-6 months time

 

[Atlas627]

Would it help to list out all the bonuses in the OP?

As far as I remember, England and America look weakest. All their stuff comes late game, and the numbers we've seen so far are underwhelming. Not that they couldn't buff it!

Strongest? Brazil or Germany, I think. Such strong boosts for Brazil's early game, though the example games we've seen weren't deleting the rainforest features, and the AI didn't seem competitive on Great People yet. A free district in every city + a free Hanse in every city is going to be amazing alone...and then you also have an extra military card slot all game long.

China also looks good, just due to the 2 unique abilities. The good playthroughs we've seen have been able to get almost all the Eurekas and Inspirations, so that's nearly +20% research for China compared to everyone else. And then their builders have +25% charges, and they can be used to rush early game wonders (which are the ones that production really matters for. All later wonders you have a tech lead on to win the race).

 

[stealth_nsk]

As far as I remember, England and America look weakest. All their stuff comes late game, and the numbers we've seen so far are underwhelming. Not that they couldn't buff it!

England ability comes into play right once you settle on another continent. With continents not equal to land masses this could be as early as second city.

America's strongest ability is Founding Fathers - it comes into play soon after you first switch your government. Plus part of Teddy ability is +5 combat bonus on home continent, which comes into play right from the start and helps a lot against barbs.

So I wouldn't say their stuff comes late game.

 

[homan1983]

England has combat bonus on foreign continents, which on standard map size means 75% of the map

Unfortunately not If they got a combat bonus on other continents it would be great. I think you are thinking of the trait the redcoat gets.

Also you forgot that Germany gets +1 military policy on top of everything you mentioned.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Unfortunately not If they got a combat bonus on other continents it would be great. I think you are thinking of the trait the redcoat gets.

England receives free melee unit for settling on another continent.

Also, forgot to mention - Harbor is Classic era district, so unique England infrastructure comes as early as it.

 

[Atlas627]

England ability comes into play right once you settle on another continent. With continents not equal to land masses this could be as early as second city.

I forgot about that entirely, since it wasn't in the video! I still think 1 melee unit for founding a whole city on another whole continent is pretty weak, but I did forget about it.

America's strongest ability is Founding Fathers - it comes into play soon after you first switch your government. Plus part of Teddy ability is +5 combat bonus on home continent, which comes into play right from the start and helps a lot against barbs.

So I wouldn't say their stuff comes late game.

Government Legacy is inherently a later thing. You have to have the government for awhile then switch. This might be a big deal to be twice as fast at accumulating it, but it certainly doesn't seem to be anything like Brazil's quadruple district yields from the start of the game.

And I'm not thrilled about the combat bonus. In some builds the continents are tiny so it only helps against barbs, and in some they are huge (but its still only +5 and you're probably going to either destroy the AI or not).

Also, forgot to mention - Harbor is Classic era district, so unique England infrastructure comes as early as it.

True. It is a free district. But the Harbor seems to suck (Commercial Hub seems much better), and the uniqueness of the Royal Dock isn't going to matter that early with the new continent sizes.

I'm not saying they will completely suck, I'm saying they definitely look weaker than the rest.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Government Legacy is inherently a later thing. You have to have the government for awhile then switch.

You don't need to switch to gain legacy. After you stay with government for X turns you start accumulating bonuses and they come to play right away and you keep them after switch. So America with faster access to those bonuses actually get them relatively soon.

This might be a big deal to be twice as fast at accumulating it, but it certainly doesn't seem to be anything like Brazil's quadruple district yields from the start of the game.

Brazil gets a couple of strong starting campuses, but the output we've seen is a bug. It will have about +4 science per campus, which is about +8 for 2 campuses in classic (Usually you will not have enough rainforests to build more). Other districts have only minor bonus from rainforests, which is not that big advantage - you could get minor bonuses from a lot of other sources.

The ability is surely strong, but it looks a bit overrated in this thread.

And I'm not thrilled about the combat bonus. In some builds the continents are tiny so it only helps against barbs, and in some they are huge (but its still only +5 and you're probably going to either destroy the AI or not).

+5 is large bonus in Civ6 combat system. It's the same bonus as enemy unit losing half its health. One-shot sure kill appears with about +25 difference (Civ6 uses difference instead of fraction).

True. It is a free district. But the Harbor seems to suck (Commercial Hub seems much better), and the uniqueness of the Royal Dock isn't going to matter that early with the new continent sizes.

Commercial Hub comes later and we don't know how useful the Royal Dock is, especially if built in another continent's city.

I'm not saying they will completely suck, I'm saying they definitely look weaker than the rest.

We need to see much more to tell. None of England or America bonuses look killer, but overall they are pretty solid civilizations.

 

[Atlas627]

You don't need to switch to gain legacy. After you stay with government for X turns you start accumulating bonuses and they come to play right away and you keep them after switch. So America with faster access to those bonuses actually get them relatively soon.

The Legacy bonus is greyed out while its building up. It only applies after you switch. Until then, you're getting the better percentage boost for simply having the government.

Brazil gets a couple of strong starting campuses, but the output we've seen is a bug. It will have about +4 science per campus, which is about +8 for 2 campuses in classic (Usually you will not have enough rainforests to build more). Other districts have only minor bonus from rainforests, which is not that big advantage - you could get minor bonuses from a lot of other sources.

The ability is surely strong, but it looks a bit overrated in this thread.

The ability gives Standard Adjacency for rainforests. That seems to stack with the Campus' normal Minor Adjacency for rainforests, which is why Campuses seem so good with it. But its still amazing with the other districts.

+5 is large bonus in Civ6 combat system. It's the same bonus as enemy unit losing half its health. One-shot sure kill appears with about +25 difference (Civ6 uses difference instead of fraction).

I understand that. Combat bonuses in general aren't that big of a deal. Ever. You'd have to have massive bonuses for it to matter. Another unit is almost always better than making a unit stronger (except for some tech boosts, because those are big jumps).

Commercial Hub comes later and we don't know how useful the Royal Dock is, especially if built in another continent's city.

It provides more gold. Doesn't seem that strong to me at the numbers we've seen (2 gold if on another continent, wooo)

We need to see much more to tell. None of England or America bonuses look killer, but overall they are pretty solid civilizations.

I think they'll be fine. I still think they're clearly the weakEST.

 

[stealth_nsk]

The Legacy bonus is greyed out while its building up. It only applies after you switch. Until then, you're getting the better percentage boost for simply having the government.

Nope. Here's the screenshot with 2 legacy bonuses. Bonus from the current government and previous one are shown the same way:

Spoiler :

The ability gives Standard Adjacency for rainforests. That seems to stack with the Campus' normal Minor Adjacency for rainforests, which is why Campuses seem so good with it. But its still amazing with the other districts.

Yes, you're correct. I thought it's minor bonus, but in the build we've seen it's clearly standard.

I understand that. Combat bonuses in general aren't that big of a deal. Ever. You'd have to have massive bonuses for it to matter. Another unit is almost always better than making a unit stronger (except for some tech boosts, because those are big jumps).

Warrior is 20, Spearman is 25, Swordsman is 35. +5 is a significant bonus - 3 of them allows compensating 2 era difference in combat strength between units.

It provides more gold. Doesn't seem that strong to me at the numbers we've seen (2 gold if on another continent, wooo)

Yep, but additional movement to naval units and GA points could be quite strong, depending on the role of the sea.

I think they'll be fine. I still think they're clearly the weakEST.

Yes, they look weakest, but I'm not sure we estimate them right. Maybe having 2 UU is not as weak as it looks, for example.

 

[Atlas627]

Nope. Here's the screenshot with 2 legacy bonuses. Bonus from the current government and previous one are shown the same way:

Spoiler :

Ah, thanks. Hmm, there is a quill there to indicated that its getting added to. Guess we haven't seen confirmation that it stacks with your current government of the same type, but it seems to from the interface.

So I think you're right that you don't need to switch governments, but it definitely still needs to build up over time which automatically makes it come later than it says it does.

Warrior is 20, Spearman is 25, Swordsman is 35. +5 is a significant bonus - 3 of them allows compensating 2 era difference in combat strength between units.

Eh, but on own continent? I hope the continents get bigger before release. That would help this a lot, yes.

Yep, but additional movement to naval units and GA points could be quite strong, depending on the role of the sea.

I don't recall seeing more GA points than the normal harbor. Navies in general have so far seemed super underwhelming, as I've been arguing in the coastal city thread.

Yes, they look weakest, but I'm not sure we estimate them right. Maybe having 2 UU is not as weak as it looks, for example.

Fair, but what good is talking about it unless we go off of what we know or can assume? Unless we just want to talk theory, which is fine too. But "we can't know yet" seems so obvious that its a moot point. Of course we can't know yet, but what else is there to talk about?

 

[isau]

The thing about England's free unit upon settling a city on another continent is that you then need to defend said city to make it worth it. It's likely you'll have 2 continents close together, but 3 or 4 in places you can make a contiguous empire is a longer shot. If the cities are in places that are hard to defend, you'd have been better off just building the unit straight up.

What I don't understand right now is what the benefit of building on multiple continents actually is. Just based on everything I've seen, it looks like a weak strategy and you'd be better off sticking your cities together so you can defend them. Now maybe there are policies or wonders out there that explicitly apply to cities on foreign continents, but I haven't seen them. I do know Spain has its thing. England? Not convinced yet.

 

[Sansa_Stark]

The good playthroughs we've seen have been able to get almost all the Eurekas and Inspirations, so that's nearly +20% research for China compared to everyone else.

I don't think it was anywhere close to 100%, I'd say something like 70% maybe.

But, I really think you guys underestimate simple fact that the stronger the eureka/inspiration boost is, the lower the number of gained eurekas/inspirations will be. An extreme example: if you could one turn each tech, how many eurekas would be possible to get? Almost none, since there just would be no time to gain them.

So, my rough estimate is: If a good player is able to get 70% of eurekas, then same player gets max ~60% of them playing as China.

Wow, I just made a calculation to find out what that means, and if I count correctly, in this example it is 1% science boost only! Obviously, my numbers may be off, but basic concept stays. If there are only couple of techs/civics which do not get boosted since player goes faster through specific tree, the value of bonus goes dramatically down. Because each boost is 10% gain, but each lost eureka is 50% lost.

Calculation: Lets say we have 10 techs worth 10 beakers each. Standard player needs 30 beakers for 3 unboosted techs, and 35 (7*5) beakers for 7 boosted techs, so 65 total. China needs 40 beakers for 4 unboosted techs, and 24 beakers (6*4) for boosted techs, so 64 total.

There are obviously other considerations, like additional gains from earlier access to certain techs, but I really don't think that this is as good as people seem to think.

 

[stealth_nsk]

What I don't understand right now is what the benefit of building on multiple continents actually is.

I think you're missing the important point - continent isn't equal landmass. Even on Continents map, a single landmass usually contains 2 continents. Your normal second city on the same landmass several tiles away from your capital could be conunted as city on another continent.

 

[agonistes]

Strength should not be how quick but how reliable you can win. A slow civ that win 100% of the time is stronger then a quick civ that win 99% of the time.

Ah. No, I certainly agree with this. I meant in terms of the games pacing overall. If u can win all the time in an early era, the strength of a civ that ramps up in a later era is irrelevant. I think Germany (and Japan) really will hit their stride as industry boosting techs are discovered. Which is moot if Scythia can dom in turn 4.

 

[GauntZero]

WHy is it +20% Research for China ?

At best, it is a +20% increase of the Eureka, but not of science itself. That bonus would be max. around +10%. ANd I doubt you get all Eurekas, especially if the Eureka effect helps for faster science.

 

[isau]

I think you're missing the important point - continent isn't equal landmass. Even on Continents map, a single landmass usually contains 2 continents. Your normal second city on the same landmass several tiles away from your capital could be conunted as city on another continent.

No, I knew that. That's why I guessed there might be 2 continents close together, but getting continents 3 and 4 would come much later.

It's possible I'm misinterpreting part of the ability. Is it a free unit every time you settle on a foreign continent, not just the first time you do it? That would be somewhat better. The way I read it, it looked like a bonus the first time you settle, which would mean on average 3 additional units per game.