5BC Defiant Deity again

[Own]

Lookin good. Let's go for cuzco only if by the time we're ready no closer city has culturally expanded. We also should build a spear if we get bronze working, just one is enough with defensive backshots to hold off all their free warriors.

Normally in an archer rush, you make peace for towns and techs, rebuild, then attack again, but we may be satisfied with just one raid for now.

Roster-
Own
Mump- just played
BeF- up
Elephantium- on deck
Othniel- inside the hole

 

[Mumpulus]

We're a long way from BW and spears, which is why I would continue building archers until we're somewhat certain of our capabilities to hold off the Incans.

If we have to wait for cultural expansions, I think we'll miss our window of opportunity with our archers. That's why I proposed Cuzco. Just take that, and maybe some other town if opportunity arises. If no other town expands, it may be worthwhile razing some town that's badly placed to make sure we can get peace when we need it and/or get a better deal out of our peace negotiations.

Remember that in our previous try, in some cases we inflicted quite some damage and still couldn't get straight up peace from some civs. Let's make sure we are able to cause our enemy sufficient pain and troubles before we initiate a war.

Also, try to make sure there are as few enemy units within our borders as possible before making peace, to reduce the probability of having another war on our hands the turn after when we have to boot them. That also was a big problem in the previous game. Unless of course we want to restart a war immediately after.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Quick observations: 1N of the spot you marked has 3 hills, 1 gold, 4 BG's, 5 chops, sounds like a winner.

Cuzco is the wise spot to go to right now as it will cripple them most and with a bit of luck we 'gain' Tiwanaku, then eventually Corih... as new capitals. 100% approved.

However, archer rush or no, food is power and we don't have a new settler on its way out while we're reducing growth at size 6. I'm quite against that. We might want to keep one or two at home for MP while we're not attacking, too.

Will hold for further comments, for now I'd risk an archer scouting north (will prob get booted but worth a shot) while others converge, found town #2 on river-coast-wheat SE and keep the alive.

 

[Mumpulus]

Agreed that 1N of my red dot is better, but for different reasons.

The spot I marked has 5 BGs (as does yours actually), also 3 hills (same), 5 chops (yours has 6), also has the gold, adds a mountain and more grassland and less plains. But yours has more river tiles, and allows a harbor for the 3 sea tiles you get either way. So 1N unless someone sees something even better.

Since the lands southeast of Beijing aren't very appealing, maybe we could also put a town north of the wheat then.

[Edit] On builds in Beijing: if we're going to commit to the archer rush, I'd prefer not to build a new city towards the Incans, so we don't have to divide our forces. Maybe build a worker instead of a settler?

 

[Othniel]

On builds in Beijing: if we're going to commit to the archer rush, I'd prefer not to build a new city towards the Incans, so we don't have to divide our forces. Maybe build a worker instead of a settler?

Perhaps build a settler to store the pop growth, but don't build a new city with it until later...

 

[Mumpulus]

If we are going to build a settler, might as well use it. Building the southern city that would share the cow should not have many tactical implications. Storing the settler will increase our unit support costs, while using it will diminish those.

 

[Othniel]

If we are going to build a settler, might as well use it. Building the southern city that would share the cow should not have many tactical implications. Storing the settler will increase our unit support costs, while using it will diminish those.

The best solution so far.

I'm guessing Machu has a resource nearby (Iron?) for the Inca to to settle that far south, that early. Perhaps not, but I'm really hoping.

Are we still doing Alpha at min or did we switch? I can't open the save right now to see.

Getting Alpha first is fine, but I'm still pretty stuck on getting The Wheel soon. We may not want to research it ourselves if we can trade for it, so perhaps we research Writing/Maths next, but seeing if we have horses would seem to really affect our military building choices.

If our cities are cxxxc spaced, having something fast to go between seems crucial. Also, obviously we would then have the option of building horses for upgrade to Riders when that time comes. I generally like to emphasize (not exclusively though) Horses over Swords on a wide-open map like this appears to be. Until pikes come, the speed of getting more horses to battle can be more important than the individual greater hitting power of swords, IMO. So for all these reasons, in my mind seeing where horses are at is top priority.

 

[Own]

If we have to wait for cultural expansions, I think we'll miss our window of opportunity with our archers

I said if no closer city expands before we're ready to attack Cuzco. Taking a closer city will be less corrupt and less flippy, but won't do as much damage to the Incans as we would like.

That also was a big problem in the previous game.

That was my fault, I didn't have NoAIPatrol=0. I don't expect a big problem from that.

If we are going to build a settler, might as well use it. Building the southern city that would share the cow should not have many tactical implications. Storing the settler will increase our unit support costs, while using it will diminish those.

Maybe we could fire a beakerhead to let it grow to 7 so that when the settler is built we're at size five still making 10spt. Let's put it in a spot so that it can share the cow, and we'll do the 442 growth cycle for beijing, and 2224 growth for Shanghai (I think).

I'm guessing Machu has a resource nearby (Iron?) for the Inca to to settle that far south, that early. Perhaps not, but I'm really hoping.

You may be right about this. Let's try and get it in peace if at all possible.

Getting Alpha first is fine, but I'm still pretty stuck on getting The Wheel soon. We may not want to research it ourselves if we can trade for it, so perhaps we research Writing/Maths next, but seeing if we have horses would seem to really affect our military building choices.

If our cities are cxxxc spaced, having something fast to go between seems crucial. Also, obviously we would then have the option of building horses for upgrade to Riders when that time comes. I generally like to emphasize (not exclusively though) Horses over Swords on a wide-open map like this appears to be. Until pikes come, the speed of getting more horses to battle can be more important than the individual greater hitting power of swords, IMO. So for all these reasons, in my mind seeing where horses are at is top priority.

I'm mad at myself for going min on alpha, I usually go max on wheel in these situations, I can sometimes beat a civ or two to it. We might want to stop min on alpha, it's cheap to die and can trading it around can get us base techs, but it's probably too late for that. OTOH, with only one city and many archers, it's probably very, very difficult to support quick research. I'd just continue on alpha and see if we can squeeze the wheel out of the incans in peace.

The shape of the land is good in a militaristic sense; we'll have a narrow front to defend. But not having contacts ensures that we'll be climbing out of a techhole later. Not to worry, that's my favorite thing to do in civ .

I definately prefer horses in almost every situation. Just the retreat ability is enough to make them better than swords, add in the speed and it's no contest. Upgrading to riders would be nice, but I wonder where we'll get that kind of cash. Maybe we'll get lucky and be able to capture Leo's.

 

[Othniel]

Upgrading to riders would be nice, but I wonder where we'll get that kind of cash. Maybe we'll get lucky and be able to capture Leo's.

Grabbing some tea leaves to read our future plans...

If we're way behind in tech--and we're likely to be--then a min run at Literature could be good. It might just get us a trade tool and enough gpt for at least a few upgrades. Horse --> Knight upgrades cost 3*(70-30) = 120gpt. (I couldn't remember so I had to do the math... ). Not cheap, and Leo's would certainly be a stroke of luck.

Have we considered a GLib run? If we don't do that, we're probably looking at self-research for a LONG time to come. We might get lucky with some more contacts and trade opportunities, but that looks a little unlikely right now, IMO.

 

[Own]

Glib would be worth it, and it's gettable, but I don't like the idea. Glib seems really cheap to me unless it's always war. Self research and trades are the scenic route to victory.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Unless we upgrade a buttload of troops, Leo's will not give us nearly as much mnoney as GLib would. every tech is a lot of gold, the math was done in B04 IIRC and we counted that we'd needf to upgrade a ridiculous amount of troops to make it worth our while, the kind of amount we didn't even reach in GR's super huge AWM.

edit: we can't support any kind of research with no MP and that many archers out. I'd min on alpha until something more brilliant comes up.

 

[killercane]

Let me confirm myself, couldnt stay away. IMO, we have a perfectly nice archer-warrior-settler (later archer-worker) factory, so instead of building a settler, lets build a granary next. 8 archers are enough to take Tiwanaku, and probably raze another city, and we can accept a city or two for peace then.

Also, we will be stuck with trying to obtain the GLibe rather than capturing it if we dont turn up research on alphabet to the maximum.

So I would propose granary next (done turn 7), worker to chop after mining, which should give the settler in 2 turns to be done on turn 9. We should then be size 5 and able to cycle through builds (get rid of scientist sometime to go to size 7). Then we probably will have to settle coastal and get a curragh out, and then the third built city would be Beornvegas out there past the Incas.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Granary is quite sensible although I'd still prefer a settler first. We're quite late on a second city already. Both are good options and I'll go with the team there though. So long as we use that food we've got.

 

[Mumpulus]

I fear that if we stop building military now for longer than a few turns, we may end up short on troops. We have committed to an archer rush, and should see it through now. We're quite late on a second city because we decided to get our second and third (and fourth and fifth?) towns through war.

So my vote goes to:
- build settler now, settle behind our lines
- build archers again after that
- attack Cuzco because it won't autoraze, get additional towns in peace, where Machu for the iron and Cori for the location seem best
- get Beijing back to 10spt, then give the cow mostly to our second town
- I am obviously not in favor of going for the GL
- stay on alpha at min, because we have some turns invested and because we can't support high research anyway

 

[Own]

Granary sounds good, but it should come later. My vote goes to
-Build settler after we reach size seven (meaning firing the beakerhead) so we still get 10 spt after it's done.
-Build a few archers (and a spear if we come across bronze working) then a granary.
-Attack Cuzco.
-I'd let Beijing keep growing, even if it means high lux tax. Then the second town will share the cow with beijing, but, unlike what Mumpulus said, I'd rather Beijing get most of the cow.
-No GL, it's a weasel way out of the game.
-Stay alpha at min, too many units to support fast research.

Please, nobody give me authority just becuase I started the thread, I am far from the best player here, these are just my suggestions.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Still, I'm tempted to go with these amendments, Own, though the rest of Mump's post are on my list. Going now, hope I can squeeze it before work.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Pre-Turn:
Micro for 10 shields and 4 food.

IT
Incas show off their reg warriors spearhead force. Not convincing.

T1.
Archer -> warrior since we have 4 turns at 10 spt.
Send the archer to the Cuzco raiding party.
BW is now known

T2.
warrior -> Settler

IT
Settler going SW of Piccu.

T3.
Scout near Cuzco: more reg warriors, a reg spear.

IT
Get booted off Cuzco

T4.
Settler next turn

IT
Tiwanaku sends a settler SW.

T5.
Settler -> Granary

T6.
Tasty ...

IT
Huamanga (incan) settled just SW of the Beornvegas tile. I'd certainly to grab that one in a peace deal.

T7.
Added '(1)' and '(2)' to our built cities' names
T-Bone starts on a chopper granary
Archer goes elite (5/5) capturing the 2 settler-slaves. Capture a random worker near Cuzco

IT
Incans stunned, no direct reaction on turn 1

T8.
Gather our forces together

IT
Incan reaction: reg warrior galore scrambling incoherently across the lands

T9.
Split the 3 worker slaves we've got for bait, move in on Cuzco full throttle

T10.
Send our warrior out to snipe the incan scout. Raise lux
Lose 3 archers on Cuzco gripe:!), get 1 elite victory. Stack down to 3 vet 1 elite. Incans will not negociate now, we must sue for peace ASAP. This will have bought us some farmer time, next rush will come in faster: we'll have 10 spt and faster growth to build up.

Huamanga is too recent to have built anything so if a unit was to come out of Machu Piccu, just flee SW if you need. I doubt 3 archers would break through Machu, we'd need a little more for charge #2.

Pictures pending

Roster-
Own -
Mump -
B- just played
Tusker - up
Othniel- on deck
Killer - down there

 

[Own]

Looked at save. MM is perfect, and so was the archer rush execution . Very nice new capital indeed, let's build up and head for Machu Pichu and iron (we think).

My only complaint is the granary in T-Bone. Unless it works a forest (big no no) or we get lucky with the chop and it reveals a BG, we're not gonna get past 1 spt. I'd build a warrior first (because of the chop) and then a worker.

Tusker is up.

 

[Elephantium]

I'll play tonight. The plan is to build more Archers in Beijing and get ready to assemble them near Machu for our next assault. Meanwhile, I'll heal the current Archer stack and move most of them towards Machu. Once the Incans are willing to talk peace, I'll ask for cities first, techs second.

Am I missing anything?

 

[killercane]

It looks pretty good, the Incas got Beorned! Well I didnt win the granary argument, but we need need need to do alphabet quicker than in 20 turns (1750 bc I suppose). The AIs will have writing by then so we need some turns into it (writing) at that time. I havent checked but surely we can speed that time up. We know no one besides the Incas!

Alphabet before then is important to get into the trade loop. We seem to be on an island only with the Incas. Until we can reach other places, we cant expand unless we let Incas expand and then take their cities every 20 turns, and by then the other AIs will have pikes. A little extra gold will do us no good when the other AIs are in republic and we are still in despotism!

Caveat: if we cant reach any AIs before Astro/Navigation, I think we would want another start with only the Incas around to farm for towns.

All this is predicated on getting to Chivalry quickly with a nice amount of gold to upgrade horses a la Moonsinger, a big China fan. I havent played China in a while but we need contacts and trading opportunities and we cant get those unless we have some ships!