Huh? The 5CC supporters want something different than epic and different that what we've done for 6 demogames now. The only way we can give them what they want is to play something other than an epic -- i.e. put limits on the game. Definitions: Epic game A game of Civ which is played using a combination of the standard rule choices available on the normal starting screen. Modification A game which is played using rules which were modified from the standard rule choices. Variant A game which is played using standard rule choices, but with self-imposed behavioral limitations such as never being able to make peace (and thus not trading) or limiting the civilization's growth. To be not an epic and satisfy the 5CC camp, we have to either modify the game rules or set limits on ourselves.