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[Complex] (6-02) Improve Pledge of Protection's Impact on the Game

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adan_eslavo

Archmage of all Pixels
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Hi! You may recognize me as a developer of few mods and overhauls, who has started on playing some games recently. One of the things I think should be improved are Pledges of Protection.

In my opinion Pledges of Protection have little to no impact on the gameplay. How it looks like now? Player who wants to secure a bit his Friendship or Alliance with a :c5citystate: City-State, can Pledge a Protection over this :c5citystate: City-State. This action will lower the :c5influence: Influence decay, thus makes the Frienship or Alliance last longer. But as I could see in my games, this is the only thing that mattered and you can simply spam PoP over the whole map, even if :c5citystate:City-State is out of the range of the player. I have few ideas how to make PoP meaty and more intersting from the diplo perspective:
  • protection can be pledged only in the specific range from the city/empire (I would set it to 20 tiles from the closest city, so if a :c5citystate:City-State is farther than 20 tiles, you just cannot pledge);
    • this change will be overriden in case (6-03a) proposal by @azum4roll passess (it changes the prerequisites for PoP, which is not the main focus of this proposal);
  • Pledge of Protection guarantee a reaction from the protector when certain actions are performed towards protected :c5citystate:City-State. These actions are:
    • (A) someone Demands Tribute from that :c5citystate: City-State (any);
    • (B-1) someone declares War to that :c5citystate: City-State;
    • (B-2) Merchant of Venice is trying to do a buyout action;

When one of the situations are met in game two things happen:
1. If action is performed by human player, then he gets a notification that his action may end up with a war. All Protectors are listed, so he could know the risk. He may accept the (potential) consequences or withdraw, changing his mind. If he accepted, then:
  • if the attacker has a Defensive Pact with someone, this Defensive Pact is not in charge here (player defending the :c5citystate: City-State is not treated as the attacker, so Defensive War has no place here);
  • if the defender has a Defensive Pact with someone, this Defensive Pact is not in charge here;
2. If attacker accepted consequences, all protectors gain the notification about the situtation and are asked if they want to help the protected :c5citystate: City-State or not:
  • (this action is only available for the "A" situation and only if defender has not denounced the attacker before) defender may decide to denounce attacker;
  • defender may decide to fullfil his promise and defend the city state declaring war on the attacker:
    • he's drawn into war with the attacker;
    • if this would mean breaking the Declaration of Friendship or Defensive Pact with the attacker, defender breaks it without any consequences;
    • player gets additional +30 :c5influence: Influence and +10 :c5influence: Resting Influence with this :c5citystate: City-State and +10 :c5influence: Influence with the other protected City-States;
    • other civilizations's (also protecting that :c5citystate: City-State) opinions about the defender are increased (+30 for 30 turns; internal value of 150); they are pleased wirh your recent actions
    • defender's opinion about the attacker drops drastically (-20; -40 if with DoF; -60 if with DP; all for 30 turns, stacking);
    • Vassals and Allied :c5citystate: City-States of both sides are drawn into War;
  • defender may change his mind and refuse to defend the :c5citystate:City-State:
    • defender's :c5influence: Influence with mentioned :c5citystate: City-State is nullified to the resting point;
    • Pledge of Protection is cancelled;
    • defender gets penalty (-10 :c5influence: Influence) and increased decay (additional -1 :c5influence: Influence/Turn/10 Turns) with all currently protected :c5citystate: City-States (so total of -20 :c5influence: Influence);
    • other civilizations's (also protecting that :c5citystate: City-State) opinions about the defender are decreased (-30 for 30 turns; internal value of -150, they are disappointed with your recent actions), but only if they decided to defend the :c5citystate: City-State (otherwise, nothing happens);
    • Vassals and Allied :c5citystate: City-States of the attacker are drawn into War;

Such a behaviour can lead to few new gameplay and diplo situations:
- players must pledge protections more carefully and only to :c5citystate: City-States they can really protect and that matter to them the most;
- players must assess how many civilizations currently protect a :c5citystate: City-State, so the more of them, then the less is the risk of attacking it by another player (because that could end up in a joint defensive war);
- players cannot spam PoPs, because they may end up in the situation when they have to refuse to protect a :c5citystate: City-State, because of Wars they are currently at, and not to fight on all fronts;
- players can break their pacts by attacking the protected :c5citystate: City-State (not without the consequences, but it is the new way of bertraying the players);
- players might think of attacking a :c5citystate: City-State when it is not protected, or it is protected by a player involved in many Wars;


A. Notification for the attacker could look like this:
You are about to attack the XXX City-state, which is protected by: YYY, ZZZ and AAA. These civilizations may declare War on you if you continue. Are you sure you want to proceed?
I changed my mind, withdraw
......I understand, proceed

B. And for the defender it would be similar:
XXX City-State was attacked by BBB. This City-State is /also protected by ZZZ and AAA/not protected by anyone else. It is matter of honor to defend its independency. What is your decision?
Protect!
......They should stand for themselves...



Amendment 1:
  • PoP allows City-State units to benefit from protector's Great General's or Great Admiral's buffs;
  • added detailed behaviour after Demanding Tribute action;
Amendment 2:
  • added case for 6-03a proposal;

Complex Proposal: DLL + UI + Database Changes
 
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So it doesn't protect against bullies?
 
So it doesn't protect against bullies?
Even if it is, I got no info about that. In such case diplo window should open up with appropriate message imo.

If anyone can confirm that I can modify my suggestion accordingly. I think Demanding a Tribute from Protected CS should also ask a defender for a reaction:
a) denounce that player (only if not denounced yet)
b) declare war to that player
c) do nothing
I'm not fully aware how it works now, so if anyone has a knowledge, please share it.
 
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I would support if there was an option for a Proxy War, where you are obligated to gift units to the CS for its defense while it is at war. Your nearby Great General gives the CS the combat bonus aura.
 
I would support if there was an option for a Proxy War, where you are obligated to gift units to the CS for its defense while it is at war. Your nearby Great General gives the CS the combat bonus aura.
You can always suggest a counterproposal with everything from my thread + your ideas.
 
I would support if there was an option for a Proxy War, where you are obligated to gift units to the CS for its defense while it is at war. Your nearby Great General gives the CS the combat bonus aura.
I was thinking and I would do this the other way.
1. Every CS with PoP can gain bonuses from Major Players GGs and GAs. Simple.
2. Accepting to defend a CS would trigger a special quest demanding few (2-3) units that should be gifted. If player will not do that, then it would be like refusing to defend.

If you are ok with that I can expand the idea above.
 
2. Accepting to defend a CS would trigger a special quest demanding few (2-3) units that should be gifted. If player will not do that, then it would be like refusing to defend.
Alternatively it could be one option for defending CS : You refuse to go to direct war, but instead you pay money scaling with era, and it spawn units in CS territory.
Influence-wise, it could be considered neither as defending nor doing nothing (you still help them, thought not as much as they expected).
 
I was thinking and I would do this the other way.
1. Every CS with PoP can gain bonuses from Major Players GGs and GAs. Simple.
2. Accepting to defend a CS would trigger a special quest demanding few (2-3) units that should be gifted. If player will not do that, then it would be like refusing to defend.

If you are ok with that I can expand the idea above.
Yeah, I really like the idea of needing to send units and GG/GA, although I think that would create an incentive to find your weakest units which might be a slightly annoying mini game. But I guess you could just purchase some units with gold/faith and consider that an investment in the defensive war effort. Do you think you would get normal influence bonuses for sending those units or do you think this would be separate from that system?
 
Hi! You may recognize me as a developer of few mods and overhauls, who has started on playing some games recently. One of the things I think should be improved are Pledges of Protection.

In my opinion Pledges of Protection have little to no impact on the gameplay. How it looks like now? Player who wants to secure a bit his Friendship or Alliance with a :c5citystate: City-State, can Pledge a Protection over this :c5citystate: City-State. This action will lower the :c5influence: Influence decay, thus makes the Frienship or Alliance last longer. But as I could see in my games, this is the only thing that mattered and you can simply spam PoP over the whole map, even if :c5citystate:City-State is out of the range of the player. I have few ideas how to make PoP meaty and more intersting from the diplo perspective:
  • protection can be pledged only in the specific range from the city/empire (I would set it to 20 tiles from the closest city, so if a :c5citystate: City-State is farther than 20 tiles, you just cannot pledge);
  • Pledge of Protection guarantee a reaction from the protector when certain actions are performed towards protected :c5citystate:City-State. These actions are:
    • someone declares War to that :c5citystate: City-State;
    • Merchant of Venice is trying to do a buyout action;

When one of the situations are met in game two things happen:
1. If action is performed by human player, then he gets a notification that his action may end up with a war. All Protectors are listed, so he could know the risk. He may accept the (potential) consequences or withdraw, changing his mind. If he accepted, then:
  • if the attacker has a Defensive Pact with someone, this Defensive Pact is not in charge here (player defending the :c5citystate: City-State is not treated as the attacker, so Defensive War has no place here);
  • if the defender has a Defensive Pact with someone, this Defensive Pact is not in charge here;
2. If attacker accepted consequences, all protectors gain the notification about the situtation and are asked if they want to help the protected :c5citystate: City-State or not:
  • if defender decided to fullfil his promise:
    • he's drawn into war with the attacker;
    • if this would mean breaking the Declaration of Friendship or Defensive Pact with the attacker, defender breaks it without any consequences;
    • player gets additional +30 :c5influence: Influence and +10 :c5influence: Resting Influence with this :c5citystate: City-State and +10 :c5influence: Influence with the other protected City-States;
    • other civilizations's (also protecting that :c5citystate: City-State) opinions about the defender are increased (+25);
    • defender's opinion about the attacker drops drastically (-20; -40 if with DoF; -60 if with DP);
    • Vassals and Allied :c5citystate: City-States of both sides are drawn into War;
  • if defender changes his mind and refuses to defend the :c5citystate:City-State:
    • defender's :c5influence: Influence with mentioned :c5citystate: City-State is nullified to the resting point;
    • Pledge of Protection is cancelled, and defender gets penalty (-10 :c5influence: Influence) and increased decay (additional -1 :c5influence: Influence/Turn/10 Turns) with all currently protected :c5citystate: City-States (so total of -20 :c5influence: Influence);
    • other civilizations's (also protecting that :c5citystate: City-State) opinions about the defender are decreased (-25), but only if they decided to defend the :c5citystate: City-State (otherwise, nothing happens);
    • Vassals and Allied :c5citystate: City-States of the attacker are drawn into War;

Such a behaviour can lead to few new gameplay and diplo situations:
- players must pledge protections more carefully and only to :c5citystate: City-States they can really protect and that matter to them the most;
- players must assess how many civilizations currently protect a :c5citystate: City-State, so the more of them, then the less is the risk of attacking it by another player (because that could end up in a joint defensive war);
- players cannot spam PoPs, because they may end up in the situation when they have to refuse to protect a :c5citystate: City-State, because of Wars they are currently at, and not to fight on all fronts;
- players can break their pacts by attacking the protected :c5citystate: City-State (not without the consequences, but it is the new way of bertraying the players);
- players might think of attacking a :c5citystate: City-State when it is not protected, or it is protected by a player involved in many Wars;

Bonus: Another thing that could be added to enhance this area, would be new Quest type: City-State desires to be Protected!
Normally it would be easy, but with reworked PoPs fullfiling the quest might be a bit risky, so player must assess this carefully.

A. Notification for the attacker could look like this:
You are about to attack the XXX City-state, which is protected by: YYY, ZZZ and AAA. These civilizations may declare War on you if you continue. Are you sure you want to proceed?
I changed my mind, withdraw
......I understand, proceed

B. And for the defender it would be similar:
XXX City-State was attacked by BBB. This City-State is /also protected by ZZZ and AAA/not protected by anyone else. It is matter of honor to defend its independency. What is your decision?
Protect!
......They should stand for themselves...
Given how much thought you have already put into mods like Unique City States and how much fun they have added, I will easily support this proposal. This is a great idea and will add another meaningful layer to diplomacy and war.
 
if the attacker has a Defensive Pact with someone, this Defensive Pact is not in charge here (player defending the :c5citystate: City-State is not treated as the attacker, so Defensive War has no place here);
I thought that is how it already works. I remember bypassing a Defensive Pact by pledging protection to a CS that was being attacked by the civ I wanted to got o war against. A notification screen appeared the next turn giving a choice to ignore or fulfill the pledge, I chose to fulfill, and my opponent started a war with me without getting his DP allies involved.

It happened many patches ago. Unless it got changed in the meanwhile, this part of the proposal should already be in place.
 
Bonus: Another thing that could be added to enhance this area, would be new Quest type: City-State desires to be Protected!
This quest already exists. It is triggered by bullying, however.

I thought that is how it already works. I remember bypassing a Defensive Pact by pledging protection to a CS that was being attacked by the civ I wanted to got o war against. A notification screen appeared the next turn giving a choice to ignore or fulfill the pledge, I chose to fulfill, and my opponent started a war with me without getting his DP allies involved.

It happened many patches ago. Unless it got changed in the meanwhile, this part of the proposal should already be in place.
It is. Defensive Pacts only impact the defender.
 
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protection can be pledged only in the specific range from the city/empire (I would set it to 20 tiles from the closest city, so if a :c5citystate: City-State is farther than 20 tiles, you just cannot pledge
What about using the trade range?
Trade range is already one of the requirements, though I believe it can be bypassed by being allied with the CS instead.
 
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I added some of the suggestions to the proposal:

Amendment 1:
  • PoP allows City-State units to benefit from protector's Great General's or Great Admiral's buffs;
  • added detailed behaviour after Demanding Tribute action;

I still wonder if we should restrict the PoP with Trade route range, so it would be one of the required conditions plus something else, or leave it as it is as optional one and make strict distance requirement like I suggested initially.

Also, if player let the CS be captured then it could result in bad things for him, so accepting the promise and letting him die would not be advised.
 
Even if it is, I got no info about that. In such case diplo window should open up with appropriate message imo.

If anyone can confirm that I can modify my suggestion accordingly. I think Demanding a Tribute from Protected CS should also ask a defender for a reaction:
a) denounce that player (only if not denounced yet)
b) declare war to that player
c) do nothing
I'm not fully aware how it works now, so if anyone has a knowledge, please share it.
Currently:

If human bullies an AI-pledged CS: AI asks you to promise not to bully again for some turns. If you don't, they get pissed off.
If AI bullies a human-pledged CS: AI taunts you and you can either retract the pledge (angering the CS) or refuse to (angering the AI and risking war).
Not sure what happens (or at all) if AI bullies an AI-pledged CS.
 
I like the idea but do we have to put in the range limit? I like the idea of protecting any city state (particularly from a lone city state in the heart of a bullies territory.
Like others have said, I also like the idea of another alternative to honoring the PoP without direct war by donating gold. And that gold donation instantly provides units to the CS. Aka proxy wars.

I do love the idea that if you do nothing to protect them (either by declaring war or giving a large sum of gold) that the CS reverts your influence to baseline. That way the players who defend their CS take over as allies.
 
Bonus: Another thing that could be added to enhance this area, would be new Quest type: City-State desires to be Protected!
Normally it would be easy, but with reworked PoPs fullfiling the quest might be a bit risky, so player must assess this carefully.

Bonus 2: If player protects a :c5citystate: City-State, his Great Generals and Great Admirals can buff :c5citystate: City-State's units like their own.
Are these actually part of the proposal?
 
Are these actually part of the proposal?
Yes. Everything in the post the part of proposal. Bonus just means it is a small feature that contribute to the theme, apart for the main diplomatic rework.
 
I think it's unclear whether "Bonus" items are part of your what you're proposing or things you/we might want to add later. One of them reads as "we could add this if we wanted to", the other reads as "this is also included in the changes I'm suggesting". Proposals shouldn't include "nice to haves", everything needs to be direct "we are adding this" or "we are not adding this".

I would suggest just dropping them from this proposal, and putting them up for a vote in the future if you think they're still needed. Individual members can't add options to their own proposals.
 
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