(6-12) Rework How Tourism Modifiers from Religion Function

[pineappledan]

Current situation:
Concerting >50% of the population of another civ to your religion gives you a 35% tourism modifier vs that civ.
Fealty increases the tourism modifier to 50%
This shared religion tourism bonus does not work even if you completely convert another civ as long as that civ has a state religion.
In other words, in a standard 8 player game with 5 religions, you can only gain this modifier against 3 other civs. You only get this bonus vs a civ that has founded a religion if you remove their Holy city (ie. you have to capture and use an inquisitor on their holy city)
This makes the shared religion bonus almost worthless, because the players that are ahead, and therefore will be the holdouts against a cultural victory will generally be the ones that founded.

Proposal:
Religion owner gains 2% tourism modifier with a foreign civilization for each city that civilization owns that is converted to your religion.
Max of 25 cities/50% Tourism modifier
Fealty policy increases this amount to 3% tourism modifier per city.

Rationale:
- Functional: This method will work on all civs, whereas the current system only works on civs that haven't founded religions.
- Doable: Turning it into a stacking per-city bonus does not require re-defining how state religion and majority religion work.
- Familiar: a stacking per-city tourism modifier is already how Franchises work, and we already have WC votes from religious authority that scale based on converted cities, so none of this is new concepts.
- Flexible: This method acts on a city level, not with majority religion on a civ level, so it gives more incremental bonuses that reward your spreading progressively, which is more interaction than a huge 0/1 majority religion effect.
- Transparent: This method is easier to track and understand for players, because they can just count converted cities, and not have to gauge how far they are from majority, which requires counting converted populations and might includes cities that are still in the fog for the converting player.

Complex Proposal: DLL + UI + Database Changes

 

[Recursive]

- Transparent: This method is easier to track and understand for players, because they can just count converted cities, and not have to gauge how far they are from majority, which requires counting converted populations and might includes cities that are still in the fog for the converting player.

In fairness, some of the converted cities could also be in the fog.

 

[GeneralAmadeus]

Proposal:
Religion owner gains 2% tourism modifier with a foreign civilization for each city that civilization owns that is converted to your religion.
Max of 25 cities/50% Tourism modifier
Fealty policy increases this amount to 3% tourism modifier per city.

I agree with the Idea but believe the 2% and 3% modifiers are a bit low. Most civs have about 10 or so cities mid game so 4% and 6% might be better.

 

[pineappledan]

Franchises currently give 2% per city, and stack up to 25 cities. They spread faster, and are harder to block/reverse, but they also come out later.
Other % modifiers like Open Borders, Trade Routes, etc. are +15% each, increasing to 25% if you adopt the relevant Artistry/Statecraft policy.

2-3% per city is modest, but it stacks with all the other modifiers, and it's not the only benefit you get from converting foreign civs, so I think it's the right amount to start. Keep in mind CVs are already quite achievable, and the mechanic this is replacing is basically non-functional, so even a small bonus is a material boost to CV potential.

 

[GeneralAmadeus]

Max of 25 cities/50% Tourism modifier
Fealty policy increases this amount to 3% tourism modifier per city.

Some clarification. Is the max with fealty 75%? If so maybe it would be better to have it an 40% and 60%.

 

[pineappledan]

Yes, up to 25 cities, or 75%. Extremely severe. However, if an enemy civ has 25 cities then they're probably doing really well, and converting them to your religion is a major endeavor.

 

[GeneralAmadeus]

Okay. You have convinced me, this does seem reasonable.

 

[Stalker0]

I agree with the Idea but believe the 2% and 3% modifiers are a bit low. Most civs have about 10 or so cities mid game so 4% and 6% might be better.

Considering just how much easier it will be to get this bonus than you can right now, I think its a reasonable starting point. I'm a big fan of this idea.

 

[adan_eslavo]

How does it work now with civs that didn't manage to set up their own religion but captured a Holy City, so in other words, claimed someone's religion as theirs? Do they gain boost to Tourism?

 

[azum4roll]

Numbers of population converted per civ are visible on the Religion Overview, so I would say this is less transparent if some cities are still in the fog.

 

[Rekk]

How does it work now with civs that didn't manage to set up their own religion but captured a Holy City, so in other words, claimed someone's religion as theirs? Do they gain boost to Tourism?

If you own an opponent's Holy City and you haven't founded/lost your founded Holy City, then that Holy City's religion is your State Religion. All benefits of that Religion are now yours (including the Shared Religion boost).
If you own multiple Holy Cities and you haven't founded/lost your founded Holy City, then your State Religion is the one with the most domestic followers.
If you founded and still own your Holy City, then your State Religion is always the one you founded, even if you have conquered other Holy Cities.

 

[Rekk]

Numbers of population converted per civ are visible on the Religion Overview, so I would say this is less transparent if some cities are still in the fog.

Following on this, this bonus could directly be the percentage of followers of your religion in the opposing civilization, capping at 50%.

The difference being that Pdan's proposal gives a bonus against wide civs compared to tall that this does not have.

 

[Rekk]

Sponsored

 

[Stalker0]

Magi: Locked Thread as this is being absorbed into the master voting thread.