Adjusting CV Part 1: Sources of Tourism

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
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Dec 31, 2005
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There has been discussion around changing CV to make it difficult, as community assessment (now backed by raw AI data) does suggest CV wins are the predominant victory. Also just to highlight it a bit more, I'll leave a little screenshot of my current game (that is Korea on turn 263 on a standard map standard speed immortal).

Spoiler :
Screenshot.png



So to help this discussion, I wanted to centralize all of the current sources of Tourism. What are the sources that are out there, and therefore, what could we change?

So here we go. This thread is meant as a repository for this info, and for people to help me add to the list if I forgot anything. More formal discussions can happen in seperate threads.

NOTE: This includes the updates planned in V 2.7, so this includes some future changes as well.

Buildings
Stupa (5)
Pagoda? (1)
Throne Room (+10% in capital)
Arena (1 per 4 pop)
Caravansary (when land TRs complete)
Garden (+1 to GWAM)
Harbor (when sea TRs complete)
Opera House (+1 to GWs)
Hotel (+25% to GWs, 25% of culture from WW, NW, and tiles to tourism)
Museum (+1 per 4 pop, +1 to GWs)
Zoo (+1 to jungle/forest, when any TR complete)
Broadcast Tower (+1 per 2 pop, +2 to GWs)
Stadium (+50% to GWs)

Wonders
CN Tower (+25% to GWs, +25% to GWs in ALL cities, 25% of culture from WW, NW, and tiles to tourism, +25% of culture from ALL WW/NW/Tiles to tourism)
Cristo Redento (+25, +2 to hotels)
Great Firewall (removes tourism bonus from other players)
Olympic Village (+2 to Stadiums, 25% of culture from WW, NW, and tiles to tourism)
Parthenon (Provides 1 GW of Art)

National Wonders
Hall of Honor (15)
Interpretive Center (50% of culture from ALL WW, NW, and tiles to tourism, +1 to landmarks)
Reliquary (+5 on all holy sites)

Policies / Tenants
Fealty - Closer (+25% to shared religion bonus)
Statecraft - Exchange Markets (+15% for having a trade route)
Artistry - Cultural Exchange (+10% for open borders)
Artistry - Heritage (+4 to Universities)
Freedom 1 - Creative Expression (+2 to GWs)
Freedom 3 - Media Culture (+25% from Stadiums)
Freedom 2 - New Deal (+2 to Landmarks and GPTIs)
Order 2 - Creative Expression (+5 to GWs, +34% with other order civs)
Order 2 - Dictatorship of the Proletariat (+50% vs civs with less happiness)
Authority 3 - Cult of Personality (+50% vs civs fighting the same enemy, +50% of best warscore = % to all civs)
Authority 1 - Futurism (+20% to historical events, 50 tourism with era/city pop scale whenever you conquer a city)

Terrain Improvements
Holy Site (3)

WC Resolutions
International Games (+50% for 20 turns if bronze level)
Passport System (+50%)
Travel Ban (-35%)
World Religion (+50% to holy city)

Historical Events
Win a war (warscore 25+)
Get a GP
Build a WW
Enter a new Era
Start a Golden Age (Artistry Finisher)
Complete a Dig (Artistry Finisher)
Complete trade with a CS (cultural diplomacy policy)

Tourism Modifiers
Larger Empire (-5% if larger, -5% for every city more you have on Standard Size map)
Open Borders (+15%)
Trade route (+10%)
Diplomat (+10%)
Vassal (+33%)
Shared Religion (+25%) - Check me here is it +15%?
GM Concert Tour (+100%)
Boredom (+X%)

Theming Bonus - Need checks on these values
Amphitheater (+4)
Museum (+6)
Parthenon (+6)
Sistine Chapel (+10)
Global Theater (+10)
Oxford University (+10)
Great Library (+10)
Reliquary (+10)
Notre Dame (+8)
Broadcast Tower (+14)
Hermitage (+15)
Lourve (+15)
Uffizi (+15)
Sydney Opera House (+25)
Broadway (+25)

Religious Belief
Sacred Sites (+3 to Hotels/WW/NW/Buildings Purchased with Faith, Hermitage +10)
 
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azum4roll

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Oxford University is +10.
 

Rekk

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Remind me to look into the formula on how tourism per turn and culture per turn are converted into instant tourism during a historic event.
 

pineappledan

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OP is missing a bunch of theming bonuses, but that's kind of minor.
It also neglects to mention that Autocracy gives Airports to all cities for free, which is a powerful bonus for tourism victory
Also, the historic events triggers for GA and dig sites are on the Artistry finisher, not Heritage

There are a bunch of changes for the next version for some of the buildings that I will not below:
Circus (500 when completed)
Zoo (1000 when complete, +1 to jungle/forest, when any TR complete)
Airport (+25% to GWs, 25% of culture from WW, NW, and tiles to tourism) - I believe this is already changing in next version, can someone confirm?
Stadium (2500 when complete, +25% to GWs, 25% of culture from WW, NW, and tiles to tourism)
All instant :tourism:Tourism is removed from buildings on construction in the next version.
- Circus is now 100:c5culture:
- Zoo is now 500:c5science:
- Stadium is now 2500:c5goldenage:

Airport loses all :tourism:Tourism bonuses in next version (note: you forgot to mention Autocracy giving this building globally for free in your OP, but it doesn't matter now)

Stadium Loses its 25% WW/NW/Tiles converter, but its bonus to GWs is going to be increased from 25% to 50%
National Visitor Center (+25% to GWs, 25% of culture from WW, NW, and tiles to tourism)
National Tourism Center is removed. A new building with the same icon and tech unlock replaces it. It is a regular build, not a national wonder

Interpretive Center
+2 happiness
+50% Tiles to Tourism (no bonus to GWs)
+1 :c5culture: :tourism: to all landmarks on empire

There is a tech boost that gave +2:c5culture:landmarks here that I removed. Essentially I shifted a tech unlock improvement bonus onto the building.
CN Tower (+2 to GWs, +50% to GWs, 25% of culture from WW, NW, and tiles to tourism)
+2 to GWs removed
+50% GWs and 25% tiles to tourism changed to +25% GW global and +25% GW local, and 25% tiles to Tourism Global and 25% Tiles to tourism local

Essentially, the national tourism center's global bonuses were moved onto a single World Wonder, and their effect is doubled in the city it is built in.
============================================================================================================================
In summary, the % GW and % WW/NW/tile bonuses are reshuffled to look like this:

Old
Hotel
: 25/25
Airport: 25/25
Stadium: 25/25
Tourism Center: 25/25 GLOBAL
Olympic Village: 25/25
CN Tower: 50/50
Total: 175%/175%

New
Hotel
: 25/25
Airport: 0/0
Stadium: 50/0
Interpretive Center: 0/50
Olympic Village: 25/25
CN Tower: 25/25 local + 25/25 GLOBAL
Total: 150%/150%

The biggest hit is to WW/NW/tile bonuses which, in addition to losing 25% on their cap, also had their converters shifted later.
The Interpretive center is a late unlock relative to the old Airport/Stadium unlocks for these same abilities and, relative to the older system, means the total 75%/75% bonus from regular buildings costs more overall :c5production:construction and :c5gold:maintenance
It is also harder to reach the total cap, because now the global modifier is only available to 1 player, instead of being a national wonder that everyone can build.
 
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pineappledan

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Stalker0

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OP is missing a bunch of theming bonuses, but that's kind of minor.
It also neglects to mention that Autocracy gives Airports to all cities for free, which is a powerful bonus for tourism victory
Also, the historic events triggers for GA and dig sites are on the Artistry finisher, not Heritage

There are a bunch of changes for the next version for some of the buildings that I will not below:

All instant :tourism:Tourism is removed from buildings on construction in the next version.
- Circus is now 100:c5culture:
- Zoo is now 500:c5science:
- Stadium is now 2500:c5goldenage:

Airport loses all :tourism:Tourism bonuses in next version (note: you forgot to mention Autocracy giving this building globally for free in your OP, but it doesn't matter now)

Stadium Loses its 25% WW/NW/Tiles converter, but its bonus to GWs is going to be increased from 25% to 50%

National Tourism Center is removed. A new building with the same icon and tech unlock replaces it. It is a regular build, not a national wonder

Interpretive Center
+2 happiness
+50% Tiles to Tourism (no bonus to GWs)
+1 :c5culture: :tourism: to all landmarks on empire

There is a tech boost that gave +2:c5culture:landmarks here that I removed. Essentially I shifted a tech unlock improvement bonus onto the building.

+2 to GWs removed
+50% GWs and 25% tiles to tourism changed to +25% GW global and +25% GW local, and 25% tiles to Tourism Global and 25% Tiles to tourism local

Essentially, the national tourism center's global bonuses were moved onto a single World Wonder, and their effect is doubled in the city it is built in.
============================================================================================================================
In summary, the % GW and % WW/NW/tile bonuses are reshuffled to look like this:

Old
Hotel
: 25/25
Airport: 25/25
Stadium: 25/25
Tourism Center: 25/25 GLOBAL
Olympic Village: 25/25
CN Tower: 50/50
Total: 175%/175%

New
Hotel
: 25/25
Airport: 0/0
Stadium: 50/0
Interpretive Center: 0/50
Olympic Village: 25/25
CN Tower: 25/25 local + 25/25 GLOBAL
Total: 150%/150%

The biggest hit is to WW/NW/tile bonuses which, in addition to losing 25% on their cap, also had their converters shifted later.
The Interpretive center is a late unlock relative to the old Airport/Stadium unlocks for these same abilities and, relative to the older system, means the total 75%/75% bonus from regular buildings costs more overall :c5production:construction and :c5gold:maintenance
It is also harder to reach the total cap, because now the global modifier is only available to 1 player, instead of being a national wonder that everyone can build.
Oxford update and Updates from this quote made in OP. So confirming that with the CN tower, a GW in the city with the tower gets 50% (25% local + 25% global), correct?
 

pineappledan

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Correct. CN tower has 25% local and 25% global modifiers, so CN tower will boost GWs by 50% in its own city and 25% everywhere else.

The analysis that was done by L Vern solidifies my own assessment that the conversion of WW / Tile :c5culture: to :tourism: mechanic is not contributing much to these CV wins we are seeing. The analysis indicates that civs with specific bonuses for Science, Great People, and Great Works are the ones that are winning CVs, but the civs that add :c5culture:to tiles aren't winning a lot. Thus, the nerfs to % GW bonuses are warranted, but the nerfs to Tile tourism converters are not.

I want to propose that we add a WW / Tile :c5culture: to :tourism: converter to Artistry. This will compensate for the nerfs that have already been approved and submitted, but will also give Artistry another wide bonus, unstacking it a bit more from Tradition as a dedicated Tall tree.
 
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Rekk

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The analysis indicates that civs with specific bonuses for Science, Great People, and Great Works are the ones that are winning CVs, but the civs that add :c5culture:to tiles aren't winning a lot. Thus, the nerfs to % GW bonuses are warranted, but the nerfs to Tile tourism converters are not.
Are you sure it's not just historic events? Bonuses to Great People is effectively a bonus to historic events. Great Works are created by Great People ... who trigger historic events. Strong Science makes it easier to win wonder races ... which trigger historic events.

While tile bonuses increase the strength of historic events, they don't naturally help or push the player into getting more of them.
 

pineappledan

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Are you sure it's not just historic events? Bonuses to Great People is effectively a bonus to historic events. Great Works are created by Great People ... who trigger historic events. Strong Science makes it easier to win wonder races ... which trigger historic events.

While tile bonuses increase the strength of historic events, they don't help or push the player into getting more of them.
That's entirely possible. My point was that it's NOT tile culture that is winning games.
 

Rekk

Emperor
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Messages
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Oof, took a quick look at the code and it's based on a number of previous turns of culture and tourism, depending on traits, policies, what triggered the historic event, etc. Too complicated to write on my phone.

Baseline is 1/3 culture + tourism over the past X turns, where X is modified by numerous factors and the total is also modified by the number of cities owned and the type of historic event.
 

DeAnno

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and the type of historic event.
I had no idea that all historic events weren't created equal but it does make a lot of sense, some are way rarer than others.
 
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