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[Vote] (6-42) Recon Unit Line Reworks

Approval Vote (select all options you'd be okay with)


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Recursive

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VP Congress: Session 6, Proposal 42
Discussion Thread: (6-42) Recon Unit Line: Trailblazer Now Affects Base Terrain
Proposer: @DoveCDog
Sponsor(s): @Recursive

Proposal Details
Problem: Currently upgraded scouts move faster through forest than through plains. This is frustrating and immersion breaking.

Current:
Trailblazer 1
+10% CS
Double movement through forest and jungle tiles

Trailblazer 2
+10% CS
Double movement through desert and snow tiles

Proposal:
Trailblazer 1
+10% CS
Double movement through plains, grassland, and hill tiles

Trailblazer 2
+10% CS
Double movement through desert, tundra, and snow tiles

Rationale:
The scout units have 2 sets of overlapping promotions - a) ignore movement cost and b) double movement through X tile. Because plain/grassland tiles are left out of the double movement promotions, the result is that scouts can move through 4 forest tiles vs 2 grassland tiles in 1 turn. With Scouting 3 this goes up to 6 forest vs 3 grassland tiles. By giving the same promotion to grassland tiles, the discrepancy will be gone.

An alternative would be to get rid of the double movement completely and have trailblazer give +1 MP. However, this would pose problems with crossing mountains and pillaging tiles costing less impact.

EDIT: As u/pineappledan pointed out, it is possible for a tile to be both plain and forest. Proposal has been edited to apply to only base tile types, not the features (ex forest, oasis, marsh) on top of them.



VP Congress: Session 6, Proposal 42a
Discussion Thread: (6-42a) Recon Unit Line: Swap Trailblazer and Scouting As Stem/Leaf Promotions
Proposer: @ma_kuh
Sponsor(s): @gwennog (new promotion icons), @Recursive (everything else)

Proposal Details
  • Keep "Ignore Terrain Costs"
    • This is a keystone ability of recon, and what differentiates them from other unit lines.
  • Scouting (along with Survivalism) becomes the second stem promotion line:
    • Scouting 1 (no prereq): +1 Sight, +10% CS outside of friendly territory.
    • Scouting 2 (req Scouting 1): +1 Movement.
    • Scouting 3 (req Scouting 2): +1 Sight, +10% CS outside of friendly territory.
  • Add Trailblazer 1-3 as leaf promotions, and renamed to highlight they are the same tier, not sequential:
    • Trailblazer 1 Trailblazer (req Scouting 3 or Survivalism 3): Double movement in forests and jungles. +10% CS outside of friendly territory.
    • Trailblazer 2 Wayfarer (req Scouting 3 or Survivalism 3): Double movement in deserts and snow. +10% CS outside of friendly territory. Ignore ZOC.
    • Trailblazer 3 Voyager (req Scouting 3 or Survivalism 3): Allows embarkation. Allows crossing mountains. Able to use enemy roads. +10% CS outside of friendly territory.
    • Allows Survivalism scouts to also pivot into having a favored terrain, but not necessarily all of them.
  • (Existing leaves:
    • Medic I: prereq changed from Trailblazer II to Scouting II.
    • Screening: prereq changed from Trailblazer II to Scouting II.
    • Frogman: prereq changed from Trailblazer II to Scouting II.)
  • Add "Ignore ZOC" to Scout and all descendants
    • Locking this behind Trailblazer II added unnecessary disparity between the promotion lines for recon units.
    • Being able to rely on this trait for balancing purposes is a net positive.
Rationale:
The current system works by balancing more sight against faster movement. It only does so after the first promotion, and neglects the fact that forests and jungles have hills, negating the XP reduction significantly by "catching up" all those tile reveals trivially. It also implies that you should always be revealing forests/jungles first if able, so that when you get to desert and snow you'll have picked up TB 2 and can cover twice the ground. If your initial area is heavily desert and plains, then by the time you pick up TB 2, that exploration phase is over, and you are finally able to make use of x2 in trees, while your second promotion does basically nothing.

Besides this point, there is also the matter of recon units owing much of their survivability to ignoring ZOC. Gating this behind one promotion line and denying it from the other should not be the case. There are certainly alternate ways to achieve this (you could add it to Survivalism 2, for instance, so that it's redundant on each path), but I chose the way that keeps an element of danger in the recon game until Classical. The current system removes danger as a concern for recon after the first or second promotion. There may be a case for moving the +1 Movement to Scouting 1, but I think the first step of equalizing the unit speed in early game terrains is worth the change in scouting meta.

This proposal retains the x2 movement for specialized terrains to keep the unit fun to play. By limiting the terrains to more expensive promotion levels (level 5+), each choice becomes more meaningful.

Note:
"Embarkation" without Fishing becomes a T4 promotion, instead of T3. This changes how accessible coastal islands will be to recon units, and puts more of a premium on the Fishing tech.

"Ignore ZOC" likewise shifts from being gated by XP to being gated by tech/upgrade ruins, coming online with Scouts at Sailing. Pathfinders should be expected to either use Survivalism to tank barbarians or Scouting to see and avoid them, since TBII will no longer be available to slip between them, and the movement disparity cannot be relied on as readily.



VP Congress: Session 6, Proposal 42b
Discussion Thread: (6-42b) Recon Unit Line - Add New Leaf Promotions Focusing On Water Tiles
Proposer: @adan_eslavo
Sponsor(s): @gwennog (new promotion icons), @adan_eslavo (everything else)

Proposal Details
  1. Add new Canoe promotion for Scouting line (Pathfinder, Scout, etc.):
    1. allows unit to Embark everywhere; +1 Movement Point when Embarked; +10% Defensive CS when Embarked
    2. available after getting Trailblazer I or Survival I
    3. Embarkation ability is dropped from Trailblazer III; instead it will get additional +5% CS
  2. Move Frogman promotion from both current leaves to the new leaf and make it available after getting Canoe
  3. Frogman, as an end of line promotion will get additional bonus: +20% CS on Marshes
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Rationale:
  • first I would like to say I don't like any of the reworks suggested before. They are much too complicated and move the scouting line in a wrong way;
  • scouting line is heavily dependent on top tree techs allowing embarkation on certain maps. If you play on Archipaelago or Tectonics with many islands, then you can quickly get stuck with your Pathifinder early on, just because you cannot pass water tiles and you don't want to get these techs because you are an inland civ for example (it's possible) or you want to focus on techs allowing you to improve Quarries which are in the bottom of the tech tree. It's sad you have to research top techs only for your Pathfinder or Scout. In my opinion scouting line should be self-sufficient;
  • change is pretty simple and does not interfere with current promotions, so you can still choose the stem you want to follow, but in the meantime decide to allow your scout to embark, and later if you want, even improve this ability without waiting for Trailblazer III or Survialism III promotions; both promotions (old and new one fit together thematically;
  • additional movement point and defense when embarked is a bonus that you get even when you have researched the tech allowing embarkation; additional defense can be useful when you are surrounded by barbarians in no man's land and want to evacuate;
  • Frogman as an end of line promotion needs a buff, and because it's a niche promotion focusing on water movement, with a @Phosphoraptor's idea we decided to add additional strength on Marshes;



VP Congress: Session 6, Proposal 42c
Discussion Thread: (6-42c) Recon Unit Line - Swap 'Ignore Terrain Cost' For 'Ignore ZoC' & Adjust Promotions
Proposer: @Tekamthi
Sponsor(s): @Recursive

Proposal Details
Rationale
Gameplay-wise, this proposal does only the following, nothing else:

Primary Effects
  • fixes the complaint that recon shouldn't be faster in forest than mounted are in open
  • maintains good mobility for recon in rough terrain (eg. 1 MP per forest plot vs 0.5 in status quo vs 2 for all other units)
  • maintains early mobility balance for pathfinder exploration
Secondary Effects
  • eliminates choice required to obtain all-important ZoC bonus
  • adds option to cross ice with recon 1-tech tier before explorer becomes available
  • fills-in scouting promo branch with naval-equivalents to existing land-based bonuses

Proposed Implementation:

New Promotions:
Ignore ZoC​
  • replaces 'ignore terrain cost' on all recon
  • ignores Zone of Control
  • no other features (ignore terrain recently began adding a combat bonus? is this necessary?)
Pathfinding​
  • free to all pathfinder-equivalent units, not available to any others
  • temporary, 20 turn duration
  • double movement in all rough terrain (ie hills & forest/jungle), snow, desert, marsh
  • can cross rivers without penalty (movement & attack)
Arctician​
  • requires Physics tech
  • requires TB3 or SV3 promos
  • can cross ice
  • +15% combat strength in snow
Adjusted Promotions:
Trailblazer 1​
  • add double move in Marsh
Trailblazer 2​
  • remove 'Ignore ZoC'
  • add double heal in oasis
Trailblazer 3​
  • add double move in hills
Scouting 1​
  • add +1 embark vision
  • add +5% embark defense
Scouting 2​
  • add +1 embark vision
  • add +10% embark defense
Scouting 3​
  • add +1 naval move
  • add +15% embark defense
 
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I am cross-posting from the 6-48c thread, just to replicate the salient discussion points for voters' consideration here:

Here are what I believe to be the contentious issues potential sponsors/voters should be focused on with this proposal [6-48c]:
  • Underlying assumption with this proposal is that the current long-standing promo structure for the recon line is pretty good, that a complete re-design is NOT needed.
  • Most common complaint about recon, that they move as fast or faster in bad terrain than mounted in good terrain, is 100% fixed.
  • Some say ignore terrain cost MUST remain on recon, as its their key, defining characteristic. Others say its not ignore cost necessarily, but just their general mobility in rough terrain, their easy access to ignore ZoC, and their collection of XP from exploration that defines them as a unique unit line. This proposal strongly favors the latter position.
    • freeing up 'ignore terrain cost' makes room for a return of zeppelins, and/or expansion of helicopter lines whether via modmod or future proposal
    • 'ignore terrain cost' affects movement in water too, should VP or modmodders ever attempt to add water features -- its a very flat and broad effect
  • while really a non-core feature, imported from other proposal, the ice crossing promo is nonetheless included in OP, and this requires a CustomModOption to be enabled that has long been disabled.

Recon gameplay has long been a modmod focus of mine; I've posted some rather unconventional implementations on the forums here at times, or some very lua-reliant adjustments to the game -- however my take here does not fit this experimental character: Several months ago, I became tired of hearing the same complaint that recon in forest is as fast/faster than mounted in open, and altered my approach to recon modding to focus on this singular issue, with as few other database-only changes as possible. If you were to search back several years, you'd find me arguing against this concern, that its fine within VP's abstraction to have these different speeds of movement, that there is even thematic argument supporting such (its easier to forage in a forest and keep moving vs crossing open plain on foot, etc.). In this sense, I like pretty much all the proposals here.

TLDR:

If you want a relatively small change to recon promo structure, while fixing the most common complaint about recon, vote for 6-48c. Give it a test-drive before voting if you want; there's a game-ready version of this proposal (VP 4.2.x+), attached as modmod.

On the other hand, if you think recon actually needs bigger changes in addition to the common movement complaint fix, or even that this movement disparity is not an issue, the other choices this round suit such viewpoints much better; all appear to have some interesting gameplay value to them.
 

Attachments

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(Existing leaves:
  • Medic I: prereq changed from Trailblazer II to Scouting II.
  • Screening: prereq changed from Trailblazer II to Scouting II.
  • Frogman: prereq changed from Trailblazer II to Scouting II.)
I made a mistake in my original counter-proposal, Screening and Frogman require Survivalism/Trailblazer III, not II. This is not changing, so Scouting III should be required. For clarity, could this be corrected in the OP?
 
If you want none of these changes, please remember the Nay option exists and you don't have to vote for any one of these. It's not an election where one has to be elected.

And if you don't mind it NOT being changed (sorry for the double negative), you should also include Nay as one of your options.
 
good reminder in this case -- recall that community voted for another change altogether not so long ago. Turned out it required massive effort on the DLL side and was scrapped for this reason. It only had vague similarities to this round's current offerings. This round has the advantage of all being easily implemented, there won't be any DLL surprises, but they're each a different direction from previous winner.

If we don't change anything here, 6-48c still works as an optional add on, the others could be mocked up as modmods, we could come back to this question next round having play tested every candidate we're seeing here, refined them each further etc.

On the other hand we've kind of stalled on this question as a community for a long time now, I'm withholding my nay vote just on the basis that we need to try something new, and revert is always available next round too
 
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With 6-42a as the early frontrunner (not counting the nays), I think it's worth noting that AI is not good at picking terrain specializations, as is implied by that proposal. ie when AI gets to the trailblazer leaf promotions it's just gonna pick the first one in the list.

What I've done when modding similar terrain specializations, is restrict their choice to only the promo that represents the most abundant type in their owned territory. Presumably this could be done dynamically so after one trailblazer leaf is chosen, the next most abundant is the only one available, etc.

I'm curious, for those voting nay and only nay, what is it that none of these proposals accomplish, in your view? Or is it simply a 'no change needed' vote?
 
I'm curious, for those voting nay and only nay, what is it that none of these proposals accomplish, in your view? Or is it simply a 'no change needed' vote?
When we made major changes to the skirmisher line, we deliberated different ideas for months. The Espionage changes went through pre-congress discussions, drafts, and the proposals are stronger for it.

These scout proposals, collectively, feel haphazard. There is not the deliberation or care that I think these seismic changes to the scout line deserve.
 
I'm curious, for those voting nay and only nay, what is it that none of these proposals accomplish, in your view? Or is it simply a 'no change needed' vote?
For me I think none of the proposals provide an improvement over what we have now.
 
yes, my proposal was designed entirely to address the perceived "weirdness" of the turbo scout forests -- a common gripe but not one I personally care all that much about. I threw in one idea from other proposal, which I rather like, but otherwise there was no added interest to the line. In this sense, I'm not particularly in love with my proposal all that much, it just accomplishes the assigned task efficiently, and would likely require more changes in future to fill out the uniqueness of the line.

I'm seeing little to build off of this round, if the 'nays' take it. We had a winning proposal previously, sure, but those things just aren't achievable. Likely this question will come back next round; if not, the one after... what direction would we like to see when it re-appears?
 
Just guessing, but I think the Nays would probably prefer that the question didn't re-appear. :)

I think we have two options that are in the spirit of the originally-passed proposal, but using technical tools we already have available. If they don't pass, I think the take away is we should focus our collective mental efforts on other aspects of the game for a bit.

I would encourage everyone to keep in mind, the Recon Problem is pretty small in the grand scheme of the game. It's very easy to suggest changes to, but the changes generally amount to trying to do the same thing but differently. Which can be fun, and shakes up metas (for whatever that's worth to you) between versions, but probably doesn't make or break the game either way.
 
Pathfinding
  • free to all pathfinder-equivalent units, not available to any others
  • temporary, 20 turn duration
  • double movement in all rough terrain (ie hills & forest/jungle), snow, desert, marsh
  • can cross rivers without penalty (movement & attack)
This is a random kludge of a fix.
 
What I've done when modding similar terrain specializations, is restrict their choice to only the promo that represents the most abundant type in their owned territory. Presumably this could be done dynamically so after one trailblazer leaf is chosen, the next most abundant is the only one available, etc.
Recon units don't want to exist in their own territory, so this AI choice-pattern seems wrong for these promotions.
 
'ignore terrain cost' on a unit that travels on foot is a much bigger kludge, but well tolerated. Reducing its effects to 20 turns, by definition, is a great reduction in kludginess
*and then it disappears at the very least desirable moment...
 
Personally I would share my vote also to 6-42a, but this line is totally the opposite of what I would like to see...
Code:
"Embarkation" without Fishing becomes a T4 promotion, instead of T3. This changes how accessible coastal islands will be to recon units, and puts more of a premium on the Fishing tech.
We could also get rid of it completely. This is how useful this Embarkation can be.
Rest is disqualified from the start.
 
*and then it disappears at the very least desirable moment...

in v2 of the modmod via which this was developed, it was lost only on upgrade. Personally I found this made scout feel like a bit of a downgrade, and moved to the temp timer. By turn 20 it strikes me that all the early recon units have done what they need to do, balance-wise.

I think the issue with my proposal here is moreso it leaves recon a little bland, without additional changes; the fast forest recon may be jarring in some respects, but it is fun
 
'ignore terrain cost' on a unit that travels on foot is a much bigger kludge, but well tolerated. Reducing its effects to 20 turns, by definition, is a great reduction in kludginess
I completely disagree. I think Ignore Terrain Cost is quite thematic for a unit designed to move expertly through terrain in comparison to its more regimented contemporaries.
 
I completely disagree. I think Ignore Terrain Cost is quite thematic for a unit designed to move expertly through terrain.
you voted for it to be removed in round 1 of VP congress. I've pulled over the previous winning proposal, for reference:

Spoiler :

Proposal Details
This is a counterproposal to @ilteroi's proposal for removing double movement abilities from the scout line.
His proposal adds % withdraw chances as recompense for the lost double movement abilities. Withdraw chances have already been removed from the scout line in the past, because they were random chance mechanics and unpopular with certain members of the community.

Here is what I propose:
All Recon Units have base 3 :c5moves:moves and lose "Ignore Terrain Cost" (affects Pathfinder, Scout, Paratrooper, Special Forces, XCOM. Explorer and Commando are Unaffected)
  • Trailblazer 1:
    • +1 Sight.
    • Ignore movement penalties on forest, jungle, and hills.
  • Trailblazer 2:
    • +1 :c5moves:moves.
    • Ignore movement penalties from desert, snow, marshes, and rivers.
    • no penalty for attacking over rivers.
  • Trailblazer 3:
    • Ignores ZOC.
    • Can cross mountains and embark
    • +20%:c5strength: CS Outside friendly territory.
Other promotions:
  • Scouting 1(Available at TB 2 and Survival 2): +1 Sight
  • Scouting 2: +1 :c5moves:moves
  • Scouting 3: removed
  • Frogman (New promotion):
    • Available at TB III
    • Costs 1 Move to Embark and Disembark
    • No penalty to attack from embarked
    • +50%:c5strength:defense when Embarked

Recall that this proposal suggested "All Recon Units have base 3 :c5moves:moves and lose "Ignore Terrain Cost""; wherever the winning proposal suggests "ignore movement penalties from", we can replicate this functionality almost exactly with a double move bonus -- the difference will be a hilled forest/jungle/desert will cost 1.5 MP instead of 1.

edit: I've implemented the winning congress proposal from round 1 as modmod -- it works ~99% as intended by that proposal.
 
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I voted Nay. I think the scout is good as is. I don't think there is even a problem with the scout line. Scouts faster on certain terrain than on plains is not a problem. Scouts faster than mounted units is not a problem. Scouts ignoring ZOC is not a problem.

I like my scouts to be fast, to "ignore terrain cost" and to ignore ZOC. If I baby it well it becomes a strong support unit, but never strong enough to be on the front line. The current scout can accomplish all of this, and these proposals would break this.
 
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