[Complex] (6-48d) Recon Unit Line - Terrain-Dependent 4th Tier Promotions

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Phosphoraptor

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Counterproposal to:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6-51-movement-scout.685953/

Proposal:
New promotions for Recon units

(Note: The combat bonuses are meant to increase :c5strength:CS when attacking into and defending in that type of terrain, do correct me if there is a better way to word these clearly in the game)

Khakis:
Requires Survivalism III or Trailblazer III
Unlocks after researching Railroads
+10 HP
+20% :c5strength:CS when fighting in Desert, Forests and Jungle
Promotion icon preference - Pith helmet

Alpine:
Requires Survivalism III or Trailblazer III
Unlocks after researching Railroads
+10 HP
+20% [IMG alt=":c5strength:"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ5/strength.png[/IMG]CS when fighting in Hills, Mountains and Snow
Can enter Mountain tiles
Promotion icon preference - snow-capped mountain

Changed Frogman promotion
Frogman:
Requires Survivalism III or Trailblazer III
Unlocks after researching Railroads
Unit spends only 1 move to Embark and Disembark
No combat penalty for attacking while embarked or across River
(NEW) +10 HP
(NEW) +20% [IMG alt=":c5strength:"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ5/strength.png[/IMG]CS when fighting in Marsh


The existing Trailblazer/Survivalism trees are kept as is.

Reason:
I believe the approach to take regarding recon is to specialize it into a unit type that excels in fighting in difficult terrain such as Desert, Jungle, etc. They already have significant bonuses there that can be translated to combat usage. While other units struggle to advance in such terrain, recon units can move more freely and be stronger here. This should feel similar to "Light Infantry" type units in other strategy/tactical games.

Gating the promotions behind Industrial Era will help distinguish the overall role of recon units throughout the game, from exploration to combat. Currently recon units are in an awkward place in the late game since they are too weak to fight or survive against regular units, yet they carry the powerful Paradrop ability, and what are you going to do with a bunch of highly-promoted units that have exhausted their exploring role and are eating up your unit supply?

These 3 promotions have been repackaged into an effective 4th tier of promotions that makes the unit be more viable in late game combat by giving them a unique combat role, if you can reach them.

The :c5strength:CS increase is based off the 20% negated from river crossing/embarkation in Frogman and gives them much needed offensive power, especially to make use of the bonus against siege units. The HP increase helps them survive counterattacks as what is basically a weaker melee unit, and synergises with the constant heal in Survivalism III. Bonuses in various terrain have been consolidated to reduce bloat and make it easy enough to trigger the bonuses. The total effect as a conditional bonus is roughly comparable to naval melee's Dreadnaught III (+15 HP, +10% :c5strength:CS, always active).

I may add something to increase survivability further based on feedback.

Compatibility:
With 6-48c also passing, change Frogman to remove the HP bonus, and require Canoe instead.

EDIT: if 6-48c passes together with this only the Canoe promotion from it will be added without the path to Frogman.
EDIT 2: Reworded promotion text, thanks @azum4roll

EDIT 3: Added compatibility with 6-48c

Complex Proposal: Database + Artwork Changes
 
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I would vote Yeah for first two promotions, but the Frogman changes are not what I would want and conflict a bit with my vision in 6-51c. If you make another promotion based on Marshes, with new name and separate abilities I could add it to my proposal too if your passes, so it was depended on Frogman the way like this:
Code:
Trailblazer I or Survivalism I --> Canoe --> Frogman --> ??? (marsh)
Beside that, Frogman is already packed up with abilities. No need to expand it even more.
What do you think? I would like 6-51c and 6-51d to be compatible with each other.
 
Not bad! But I think all these combat promotions (including Frogman and Screening) should be unlocked earlier in the promotion tree. Then you can specialize the units into combat or support (pillage, vision) roles.

For melee, any combat bonus can be specified as "+X% Combat Strength when fighting in <terrain>" since combat always happens on the destination tile and there wouldn't be any ambiguity. The code also works that way.
 
I would vote Yeah for first two promotions, but the Frogman changes are not what I would want and conflict a bit with my vision in 6-51c. If you make another promotion based on Marshes, with new name and separate abilities I could add it to my proposal too if your passes, so it was depended on Frogman the way like this:
Code:
Trailblazer I or Survivalism I --> Canoe --> Frogman --> ??? (marsh)
Beside that, Frogman is already packed up with abilities. No need to expand it even more.
What do you think? I would like 6-51c and 6-51d to be compatible with each other.
I can compromise with the Canoe promotion, but Frogman will stay as proposed.
Could you also clarify the problem with marshes here?
 
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Not bad! But I think all these combat promotions (including Frogman and Screening) should be unlocked earlier in the promotion tree. Then you can specialize the units into combat or support (pillage, vision) roles.

For melee, any combat bonus can be specified as "+X% Combat Strength when fighting in <terrain>" since combat always happens on the destination tile and there wouldn't be any ambiguity. The code also works that way.
Might move down to 3rd tier so you can unlock from Mil Academy, but the point of the frogman proposal was to have a 4th tier for late game power. Need to think this through.
 
I can compromise with the Canoe promotion, but Frogman will stay as proposed.
Could you also clarify the problem with marshes here?
I mean, in my proposal Frogman is tier 3 promotion. So buffing it more would overpower it too much. I thought about moving your HP and Marsh bonuses (plus something extra) to another new promotion (Floater?), tier 4 promotion which would be available after the Frogman. This way you would have your ultra tier 4 promotion and I would get my Amphib leaf. Otherwise these two proposals are not compatible I think.

It would work this way:
  • if both proposals pass, then new tier 4 promotion focused on water and marshes (Floater) would go after Canoe and Frogman;
  • if only your proposal passes, then you can buff Frogman and put it wherever you want;
  • if only my proposal passes, Frogman will be last of the line;
Frogman is currently like this:
Unit spends only 1 move to Embark and Disembark
No combat penalty for attacking while embarked or across Rivers


I think it is enough for tier 3 promotion, but little bit low for tier 4.
 
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I mean, in my proposal Frogman is tier 3 promotion. So buffing it more would overpower it too much. I thought about moving your HP and Marsh bonuses (plus something extra) to another new promotion (Floater?), tier 4 promotion which would be available after the Frogman. This way you would have your ultra tier 4 promotion and I would get my Amphib leaf. Otherwise these two proposals are not compatible I think.

It would work this way:
  • if both proposals pass, then new tier 4 promotion focused on water and marshes (Floater) would go after Canoe and Frogman;
  • if only your proposal passes, then you can buff Frogman and put it wherever you want;
  • if only my proposal passes, Frogman will be last of the line;
Frogman is currently like this:
Unit spends only 1 move to Embark and Disembark
No combat penalty for attacking while embarked or across Rivers


I think it is enough for tier 3 promotion, but little bit low for tier 4.
I would like the tier 4 promos to be mainly for difficult terrain combat, and the marsh bonus alone would be too rare to be useful. If we move Frogman down to tier 3 i would like to just keep the marsh bonus, there are generally few of these tiles and the purpose is to just plug a gap the other promos dont cover, so the impact on power is minimal.

Ill edit to proposal’s compatibility part accordingly.
 
Counterproposal to:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6-51-movement-scout.685953/

Proposal:
New promotions for Recon units

(Note: The combat bonuses are meant to increase :c5strength:CS when attacking into and defending in that type of terrain, do correct me if there is a better way to word these clearly in the game)

Khakis:
Requires Survivalism III or Trailblazer III
Unlocks after researching Railroads
+10 HP
+20% :c5strength:CS when fighting in Desert, Forests and Jungle
Promotion icon preference - Pith helmet

Alpine:
Requires Survivalism III or Trailblazer III
Unlocks after researching Railroads
+10 HP
+20% [IMG alt=":c5strength:"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ5/strength.png[/IMG]CS when fighting in Hills, Mountains and Snow
Can enter Mountain tiles
Promotion icon preference - snow-capped mountain

Changed Frogman promotion
Frogman:
Requires Survivalism III or Trailblazer III
Unlocks after researching Railroads
Unit spends only 1 move to Embark and Disembark
No combat penalty for attacking while embarked or across River
(NEW) +10 HP
(NEW) +20% [IMG alt=":c5strength:"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ5/strength.png[/IMG]CS when fighting in Marsh


The existing Trailblazer/Survivalism trees are kept as is.

Reason:
I believe the approach to take regarding recon is to specialize it into a unit type that excels in fighting in difficult terrain such as Desert, Jungle, etc. They already have significant bonuses there that can be translated to combat usage. While other units struggle to advance in such terrain, recon units can move more freely and be stronger here. This should feel similar to "Light Infantry" type units in other strategy/tactical games.

Gating the promotions behind Industrial Era will help distinguish the overall role of recon units throughout the game, from exploration to combat. Currently recon units are in an awkward place in the late game since they are too weak to fight or survive against regular units, yet they carry the powerful Paradrop ability, and what are you going to do with a bunch of highly-promoted units that have exhausted their exploring role and are eating up your unit supply?

These 3 promotions have been repackaged into an effective 4th tier of promotions that makes the unit be more viable in late game combat by giving them a unique combat role, if you can reach them.

The :c5strength:CS increase is based off the 20% negated from river crossing/embarkation in Frogman and gives them much needed offensive power, especially to make use of the bonus against siege units. The HP increase helps them survive counterattacks as what is basically a weaker melee unit, and synergises with the constant heal in Survivalism III. Bonuses in various terrain have been consolidated to reduce bloat and make it easy enough to trigger the bonuses. The total effect as a conditional bonus is roughly comparable to naval melee's Dreadnaught III (+15 HP, +10% :c5strength:CS, always active).

I may add something to increase survivability further based on feedback.

Compatibility:
With 6-51c also passing, change Frogman to remove the HP bonus, and require Canoe instead.

EDIT: if 6-51c passes together with this only the Canoe promotion from it will be added without the path to Frogman.
EDIT 2: Reworded promotion text, thanks @azum4roll

EDIT 3: Added compatibility with 6-51c
What's the background for the name Khakis? Camouflage?

I would personally prefer the name Rangers but hey what's in a name
 
I would like the tier 4 promos to be mainly for difficult terrain combat, and the marsh bonus alone would be too rare to be useful. If we move Frogman down to tier 3 i would like to just keep the marsh bonus, there are generally few of these tiles and the purpose is to just plug a gap the other promos dont cover, so the impact on power is minimal.

Ill edit to proposal’s compatibility part accordingly.
I think it is a fair compromise. Thank you. I will leave a note in my proposal too.

As a note: I think Marshes could be packed together with Flood Plains and Oasis, because they fit thematically, but also are rare. If you change your mind then these could also be a part of the new promotion.
But current state satisfies me. I will not have much time until the end of this congress phase, so I would leave it as it is for now, but with the note for future congress maybe.
 
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Alpine:
Can enter Mountain tiles
&
The existing Trailblazer/Survivalism trees are kept as is.
These two things conflict. Crossing Mountains is already a feature of Trailblazer III. If you want to use it on Alpine, then it would be reasonable to drop it from Trailblazer III. I did the same way with Embarkation which in my proposal is moved to Canoe. As a compensation I added additional +5% :c5strength:. The problem is, that if we both take the abilities (Embarkation and crossing Mountains), then the promotion will pure CS. Do you have any idea what could be given to add some more niche to it?

Another solution can be splitting Khakis and Alpine between stems, so Khakis would be available only with Survivalism III (no more changes) and Alpine on Trailblazer III (this way can cross Mountains ability could stay on Trailblazer III, because Alpine is in the same leaf).
 
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These two things conflict. Crossing Mountains is already a feature of Trailblazer III. If you want to use it on Alpine, then it would be reasonable to drop it from Trailblazer III.
while it would be reasonable, perhaps, they don't actually conflict. having any of the boolean abilities doubled up doesn't really do anything, just means there's 2 ways to get that ability. imo such an implementation would be valid for some of the really key abilities, access to mountains maybe one of these; ie with OP proposal you can get access to mountain on your 3rd promotion in TB branch, or on your 4th via survivalism branch. Makes alpine slightly redundant to TB 3 i suppose, but there's still some good value there. That said, leaving the mountain access to just the 4th upgrade via alpine wouldn't be bad either
 
I still don't understand what problem all of these recon promotion changes are solving. It seems like a much more complicated way to make scout units viable combat units in the late game. Why not just increase the base CS of Commandos and Paratroopers? Special Forces and XCOM are already fairly viable, and buffs to their promotions mean you would probably have to nerf those units to compensate. Seems like people are proposing making like 10 changes when 2 would work just fine.
 
while it would be reasonable, perhaps, they don't actually conflict. having any of the boolean abilities doubled up doesn't really do anything, just means there's 2 ways to get that ability. imo such an implementation would be valid for some of the really key abilities, access to mountains maybe one of these; ie with OP proposal you can get access to mountain on your 3rd promotion in TB branch, or on your 4th via survivalism branch. Makes alpine slightly redundant to TB 3 i suppose, but there's still some good value there. That said, leaving the mountain access to just the 4th upgrade via alpine wouldn't be bad either
Yeah, but if we have it on 4th tier promo, then Trailblazer III could get something else instead.
 
Special Forces and XCOM are already fairly viable
Are they really in combat? They don't have the extra HP and ranged defense that the main melee line gets, nor Armor Plating from tanks, and they have lower base CS.
Their only role to me is to paradrop onto some undefended area, pillage and run.
 
I still don't understand what problem all of these recon promotion changes are solving. It seems like a much more complicated way to make scout units viable combat units in the late game. Why not just increase the base CS of Commandos and Paratroopers? Special Forces and XCOM are already fairly viable, and buffs to their promotions mean you would probably have to nerf those units to compensate. Seems like people are proposing making like 10 changes when 2 would work just fine.
My proposal’s reasoning is to give them a niche in difficult terrain, simply increasing CS will make them too samey with melee units. I suspect this is also why there is no anti-cav line with guns.
 
What's the background for the name Khakis? Camouflage?

I would personally prefer the name Rangers but hey what's in a name
Its inspired by the short sleeves/pants uniforms worn by european troops in Africa/SEA during the late 1800s - 1900s. Their uniforms were often in the khaki color, so these uniforms were called khakis.
 
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Their only role to me is to paradrop onto some undefended area, pillage and run.
Exactly this, however being able to cut roads from capital (=> unhappiness hit) and pillage caravans (more money for you, less for them) looks good enough for me. Plus, you can pillage strats and luxuries. Might be less true in higher difficulties, since they have more units and thus finding a good pillage spot might be harder.
 
Are they really in combat? They don't have the extra HP and ranged defense that the main melee line gets, nor Armor Plating from tanks, and they have lower base CS.
Their only role to me is to paradrop onto some undefended area, pillage and run.
Special forces make decent amphibious attackers, but otherwise I agree. I don't use paratroopers/special forces as frontline units, they aren't that great at it. They are better for strategic pillaging and providing flanking or a meat shield at a key location. And I thnk that's a perfectly good role for them, I do use them commonly in my late wars for that purpose. Never as much as my main infrantry, but to me they are a specialty unit so only building a small group fo them for strategic missions is exactly the point.
 
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