[Vote] (6-46 & 6-47) Weaken City's Religious Pressure Based On Own Era + Different Scaling / Notre Dame Rework

[Recursive]

MAGI - Due to interactions between (6-46), (6-46a) and (6-47), it has been decided to hold a common poll.


VP Congress: Session 6, Proposal 46
Discussion Thread: (6-46) Weaken City's Religious Pressure Based On Own Era + Different Scaling
Proposer: @Enginseer
Sponsor(s): @Enginseer

Proposal Details
Counterproposal to this: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6-59-weaken-religious-pressure-with-era.685976/

It's a similar rationale, but we weaken based on the (FaithCost Multiplier - 100%; The game rounds decimals down.) The big difference is however that religious pressure OUTPUT of your cities is weakened based on the era you're in. If a religious tech leader is too ahead, their pressure will be weaker compared to their more tech-inferior neighbors. This allows weaker tech neighbors with a holy city to try to catch up in pressure numbers.

	Pre-Renaissance	Renaissance (150%)	Industrial (200%)	Modern (300%)	Atomic (400%)	Information (500%)
Marathon (weakens by -0.25)	2.5	2.4	2.3	2.0	1.5	1.0
Epic (weakens by -0.5)	4.5	4.2	4.0	3.0	2.5	2.0
Standard (weakens by -0.75)	6.5	6.2	5.7	5.0	4.2	3.5
Quick (weakens by -1)	9.5	9.0	8.5	7.5	6.5	5.5

Or this can be translated to Renaissance having a slight reduction of roughly 5%, Industrial reducing by roughly 10%, Modern reducing by roughly 20%, Atomic reducing by 30%, and Information reducing by roughly 40%.

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VP Congress: Session 6, Proposal 46a
Discussion Thread: (6-46a) Weaken City's Religious Pressure Based On Own Era + Different Scaling: 2nd Edition
Proposer: @Anarcomu
Sponsor(s): @Enginseer

Proposal Details
Counterproposal to (6-46) by Enginseer, with slightly adjusted numbers.

Current :

• All cities produce 6.5 pressure per turn passively for the majority religion in that city.
• This pressure travels along trade routes and uses trade route logic. It drops off gradually with distance.
• Trade route distance bonuses from roads, railroads, caravansaries and techs increase the number of cities any receiving city is exposed to.

Proposed here :
Base pressure have been reduced to 6 (easier to do math on it), and is fully taken into account across Eras and Gamespeed :

	Pre-Renaissance	Renaissance (150%)	Industrial (200%)	Modern (300%)	Atomic (400%)	Information (500%)
Marathon (weakens by -0.25)	2.0	1.9	1.7	1.5	1.2	1.0
Epic (weakens by -0.5)	4.0	3.7	3.5	3.0	2.5	2.0
Standard (weakens by -0.75)	6.0	5.6	5.2	4.5	3.7	3.0
Quick (weakens by -1.125)	9.0	8.4	7.9	6.7	5.6	4.5

Note that it is technically also a nerf to early passive pressure as well (roughly 8%).

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VP Congress: Session 6, Proposal 47
Discussion Thread: (6-47) Notre Dame Ability Rework
Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor(s): @azum4roll

Proposal Details
Current Notre Dame
+4 Faith
+1 Happiness
+1 Great Merchant Points
Free Cathedral
Starts a Golden Age
2 Great Works of Art or Artifacts slots (+3 and +3 Golden Age Points if themed)

Proposal:
Notre Dame
Must be built in your Holy City
+4 Faith
+1 Happiness
+1 Great Merchant Points
Free Cathedral
All Cities following your religion gain +2 Passive Pressure, scaling with game speed
Starts a Golden Age
2 Great Works of Art or Artifacts slots (+3 and +3 Golden Age Points if themed)

Rationale:
We have 2 world wonders that start a free Golden Age Notre Dame and Taj Mahal. They are pretty close together, and Chichen Itza (increases GA length by 50%) is sandwiched between them. There are too many GA wonders packed too close together.
We have 2 world wonders that boost active spread (Borobodur and Hagia Sophia), but we don't have a world wonder that boosts passive spread.
If this other proposal to weaken passive spread over time is passed, this wonder will be a tool to keep passive spread powerful and relevant throughout the game.

 

[pineappledan]

The icons in the OP are messed up, as of writing

 

[Stalker0]

Do people really find passive pressure too strong? The only time I find passive really moving the needle strongly is late in the game if some religion has taken over the world....in which case fair play to them. passive pressure is a terrible way to spread religion in the early game, I don't see a reason to make it weaker.

 

[azum4roll]

I'm not so sure after the trade route nerf, but in 3.x every city can pressure every city at late game.

 

[FinMc]

With the way the poll is looking, the proposals to nerf passive spread will end up having buffed it via Notre Dam buff without the associated assumed offset of pressure nerf?

 

[ma_kuh]

But we'll have 1 fewer golden age in the game.

 

[pineappledan]

With the way the poll is looking, the proposals to nerf passive spread will end up having buffed it via Notre Dam buff without the associated assumed offset of pressure nerf?

Passive spread has already been weakened through other means, and the argument goes that the proposals that were submitted to Congress did not account for that. Thus, they constitute a double-nerf.

Notre Dame will buff a single player’s passive spread. It isn’t really comparable to a general mechanic change. What is at stake in voting for Notre Dame is if you think there should be a wonder that boosts passive spread at all. It’s for that reason that I don’t think it should have been lumped here.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm still waiting for someone to show me how passive pressure is so oppressive in the middle of the game that it needs to get a 5-8% nerf.

 

[Amask]

In 2/3 of my recent games a founder who was in the top third of the scoreboard lost their religion to passive pressure.
In 3/3 there were civs without a single religious city.
Total accumulated pressure in a normal city in the middle of the map can reach 20k some time around early industrial.
I would guess that two thirds of that is from passive pressure.

It probably depends heavily on map type and size.
I generally play large pangaeas, while you prefer communitu I believe.
I haven't played it myself ever, but from screenshots it seems like the distances between civs are much larger on it.
I saw you talking about 2nd waves of expansion with pioneers in some other discussion. That's not really a thing on "traditional" maps like pangaea and continents.
Everyone is too close together, and so everyone gets pressured much harder.

 

[azum4roll]

In 2/3 of my recent games a founder who was in the top third of the scoreboard lost their religion to passive pressure.
In 3/3 there were civs without a single religious city.
Total accumulated pressure in a normal city in the middle of the map can reach 20k some time around early industrial.
I would guess that two thirds of that is from passive pressure.

It probably depends heavily on map type and size.
I generally play large pangaeas, while you prefer communitu I believe.
I haven't played it myself ever, but from screenshots it seems like the distances between civs are much larger on it.
I saw you talking about 2nd waves of expansion with pioneers in some other discussion. That's not really a thing on "traditional" maps like pangaea and continents.
Everyone is too close together, and so everyone gets pressured much harder.

Which version? Routes don't reduce trade route distance as much recently.

I also maintain the solution is stronger inquisitors.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.