[Vote] (6-49) Unique Improvement Enhancements Reworks

[pineappledan]

I agree with @Stalker0 on this, and will refer you back to his post. It is acceptable — desirable — to me that there are some must-have tenets for some civs. That’s just good, synergistic design.

 

[CppMaster]

It is acceptable — desirable — to me that there are some must-have tenets for some civs.

Doesn't that mean that those tenents would be "no-brainers", so it's not really a strategic choice?

 

[pineappledan]

The strategic choice is at the level of what ideology you want to take, and I think that’s fine.

 

[Stalker0]

Just look at how sad Eki/Pata-Pata (and to an extent, Moai) yields are.

The super culture moai tiles are now "bad"? When the heck did that happen?

And if people want to boost the Eki, GO AHEAD. The huns are 4th from last, even with these "terribly OP" tenents boosting the Eki. You want to make it stronger, these tenents aren't holding you back. Just put in a proposal and do it.

 

[Stalker0]

Doesn't that mean that those tenents would be "no-brainers", so it's not really a strategic choice?

At the end of the day, there will always exist optimized choices for certain civs. If your playing the Zulus and not taking Authority....I mean sure you CAN play without authority, but your certainly handicapping yourself. That's just the nature of any game. The goal is not to remove all no-brainer choices for a civ, that will always exist, the goal is to ensure there are enough strategic choices to still provide a good game.

 

[adan_eslavo]

The super culture moai tiles are now "bad"? When the heck did that happen?

And if people want to boost the Eki, GO AHEAD. The huns are 4th from last, even with these "terribly OP" tenents boosting the Eki. You want to make it stronger, these tenents aren't holding you back. Just put in a proposal and do it.

And we did. First me, then @azum4roll. I think he did a good research and the change will be the first step towards further balancing "without" the tenet bonuses.

There's no reason to yell at anyone because he has different opinion.

 

[Stalker0]

There's no reason to yell at anyone because he has different opinion.

My caps were meant for emphasis not yelling, but I apologize if anyone thought otherwise.

 

[ma_kuh]

This is the same to me as saying "UBs of a certain class gain the policy benefits applied to that building, therefore we should remove the free yields the UB gets from the policy, and bake it into the building itself".

Are those policies also no-brainers? Do you always pick Mercantilism (Markets, Caravansaries, Customs Houses, Banks, and Stock Exchanges gain science and culture) if you're Arabia, Egypt, Germany?

And when you pick the Tenet is also important, it competes with other choices even within its own ideology.

 

[adan_eslavo]

This is the same to me as saying "UBs of a certain class gain the policy benefits applied to that building, therefore we should remove the free yields the UB gets from the policy, and bake it into the building itself".

Are those policies also no-brainers? Do you always pick Mercantilism (Markets, Caravansaries, Customs Houses, Banks, and Stock Exchanges gain science and culture) if you're Arabia, Egypt, Germany?

And when you pick the Tenet is also important, it competes with other choices even within its own ideology.

The main difference is, that all other civilizations have "base" versions of these buildings, that also get boosts, while they surely do not have the base version of the improvement. So, when you pick up a policy it doesn't matter if you have UB or not, you always get the bonus.

 

[ma_kuh]

But these tenets all also boost other improvements. You are getting a bonus to the "base version" of tile improvements. That tile could have been something that isn't your UTI, and it would have benefited from the tenet as well (assuming you picked the right tenet).

So I guess I agree with you, that's my point.

Building, UB both get the boost.
Farm/Mine/Lumber Mill/.../Forts/Citadel, UTI all get a boost.

It's not out of place to me.

 

[azum4roll]

I can actually accept a proposal where the tenet boosts are kept BUT my tech boosts are also added. But I'm sure people will be against that.

 

[pineappledan]

People are getting salty in the moai defense bonus thread about a possible nerf to Polynesia.
Meanwhile this thread’s leading proposal changes 4 / 3 / 3 on moai to 2 aaaall the way back in atomic era.

I’m catching heat from the same community member who is proposing to SUPLEX moai yields here. And that's the vote that is winning.

 

[Recursive]

People are getting salty in the moai defense bonus thread about a possible nerf to Polynesia.
Meanwhile this thread’s leading proposal changes 4 / 3 / 3 on moai to 2.

I’m catching heat in one vote, meanwhile the proposal that wants to SUPLEX moai yields is winning here.

It's losing when you exclude cheated votes.

 

[pineappledan]

On further inspection of the specific numbers proposed by 49b, it is targeting some of the weakest civs and then nerfing them harder. Moai are going to be Hammered by this. Chateau, hacienda, and Pata-Pata are all singled out for either massive yield reductions or delays. Compare the proposed tech yields to what they already get with ideologies. It's not even close.

I don't agree with the sentiment that this is a design issue, but it's also clear that these numbers are just wrong. This proposal exacerbates existing imbalances and sets back our attempts to balance civs by quite a bit.

 

[pineappledan]

But these tenets all also boost other improvements. You are getting a bonus to the "base version" of tile improvements. That tile could have been something that isn't your UTI, and it would have benefited from the tenet as well (assuming you picked the right tenet).

Quoted for truth.

Tiles space and population to work tiles is limited. If civs with UIs aren't going to get bonuses to their UIs from these tenets then they aren't viable tenets for civs with UIs. As a total mix of their worked tiles, the base farms, mines, etc. are a much lower share if you also want to be working your UI.

The proposers seem to think that making 3 tenets that only civs with UBs and UNWs can make good use of is not a bug, but a feature. I disagree. If playing a civ with a UI, I would much rather have the choice of 3 must-have tenets than 3 dead tenets I have to pick around.