[Vote] (6-73) Keep or Revert Change to Bowman/Atlatlist Promotions

Keep in VP?


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After further investigation following the discovery of someone cheating by using multiple accounts to vote, I discovered that the same person was active in Session #4, and a single previous vote has had its outcome changed by this: (4-19) Babylon Tweaks (& Atlatlist Promotion) Proposals

By a one-vote margin, the outcome of 4-19 was changed due to cheated votes from "only tweak Walls of Babylon" to "also tweak Bowman and Atlatlist promotions". The outcome would have been 39-38, but was instead 40-42.

Thankfully, this seems to be the only cheater, and the only instance where cheating changed the outcome. It's relatively minor as there was still broad community support for the change. No other vote outcomes appear to have been affected by the cheating, which will be dealt with by CFC staff, although the results of Session #4 will be revised to reflect the actual vote count.

I am working with CFC staff to prevent this from reoccurring in future sessions. In the meantime, I'm going to add a vote to the current session so the community can decide if they want to keep the change.

Vote Yea to keep the change, and Nay to revert the change.


Discussion Thread: (4-19a) Proposal: Atlatlist and Bowman promotion swap
Proposer: @Legen

Spoiler Old Atlatlist stats (Mayan UU) :
Cost: 100 :c5production: (from 110 :c5production:)
Unlocked at Mathematics (instead of Currency)
Combat: 13 :c5strength: (from 12 :c5strength:)
Ranged Combat: 14 :c5rangedstrength:
Range: 2
Movement: 2 :c5moves:

Atlatl Strike (+33% :c5rangedstrength: RCS when attacking Wounded Units; kept on upgrade)
May Not Melee Attack
Naval Target Penalty (-20% :c5strength: CS when attacking Naval Units)

Spoiler Old Bowman stats (Babylonian UU) :
Cost: 70
Unlocked at Calendar
Combat: 8 :c5strength: (from 6 :c5strength:)
Ranged Combat: 10 :c5rangedstrength: (from 9 :c5rangedstrength:)
Range: 2
Movement: 2 :c5moves:

Indirect Fire (-10% :c5rangedstrength: RCS when attacking. Ranged attacks may be performed over obstacles, as long as other friendly Units can see the target)
Naval Target Penalty (-20% :c5strength: CS when attacking Naval Units)


Changes:
  • Atlatlist gains Indirect Fire, replacing Atlatl Strike.
  • Bowman gains Atlatl Strike, replacing Indirect Fire.
    • Atlatl Strike renamed to Marksmanship.

Rationale:

An idea came that Babylon and Maya would likely benefit more from their UUs if Indirect Fire and Atlatl Strike were swapped.

For Maya, it makes sense to pair their jungle bias and flavor with a promotion that is reliant on such kind of terrain to shine. Indirect Fire is a valuable promotion when fighting in terrain that blocks line of sight, notably dense forests and jungles. Maya has strong incentives to settle in the middle of such terrain due to their UI and tends to preserve its trees, as the UI works well with forest/jungle related buildings. As such, Maya's wars usually happen where Indirect Fire is most valuable at; their terrain bias could be turned into a reliable military advantage with it.

In contrast, Atlatl Strike tends to shine when forests and jungles are not around. The +25% :c5strength: CS those tiles give to the defender (for reference, hills grant +10% :c5strength: CS) greatly mitigates that +33% :c5rangedstrength: RCS, negating the sting Atlatl Strike would otherwise have. Add that these tiles also block line of sight, limiting your ability to engage and focus fire with archers, and you have a preference for an open field, preferably chopping nearby trees that could act as cover for an enemy. All of which run counter to Maya's preference for heavy forested terrain.

For Babylon, it makes sense to pair the defensive flavor set by their UB with a threatening garrison unit, consolidating Babylon's theme of fortified cities. Atlatl Strike could allow for a strong follow-up to the city's attacks and retaliations, so that an invader can't afford to maintain an assault or siege for long. And Atlatl Strike performs best in a wide open terrain, where you're in most need for a strong garrison. This isn't an uncommon scenario; when resources are abundant in an open field, Babylon is more willing than usual to settle there due to the extra safety from its UB. And clearing trees is common for this civ, either due to needing a place for another Academy, or to cultivate farms to feed scientist specialists (for even more academies), incidentally removing potential cover against Atlatl Strike.

In contrast, Babylon's lack of a preferred terrain and extra tendency to chop trees don't work well with Indirect Fire's reliance on the right terrain to shine. And the -10% :c5rangedstrength: RCS also makes the unit a less threatening garrison overall, working against Babylon's defensive theme.
 
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I worry that this will be buried if it isn't in the Congress forum.
Moved it there and left a redirect for two days. Want to make sure everyone sees it.
 
Does anyone have an opinion on the change now that it has been implemented and you've had some time with it?
 
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