[Complex] (6-78) Temporary Open Borders from the Discuss Menu

[usadefcon1]

Rational: Your exploration units get stuck somewhere and the AI doesn't want to give you full Open Borders privileges.

Proposal: On the Discuss Menu you can ask for Temporary Open Borders. This would allow you 2 turns to move your stuck units through. It would NOT give any of the other benefits of Open Borders i.e. no bonus to tourism, etc.

EDIT: Neutral, Friendly, Afraid and Deceptive Civs would say yes, and Guarded and Hostile Civs would say no. This is just a baseline and could be adjusted later.

The cooldown should be the same cooldown as the other items on the discuss menu such as "don't send missionaries or don't settle near me".

Complex Proposal: DLL + UI Changes

 

[Recursive]

An interesting idea. No optional elements in proposals, though.

 

[usadefcon1]

An interesting idea. No optional elements in proposals, though.

Edited out "gold could potentially be exchanged scaling with era" for the temporary open borders. Anyone who wants to make a counterproposal is welcome

 

[Tekamthi]

i like it, question is whether AI could use it effectively? ie in the case of stuck units etc.

alternatively i've thought of proposing that there should be a separate, 'open borderlands' allowing movement through border plots only

 

[Zuizgond]

How can units get "stuck"? If you mean your explorer is trapped between coast/mountains and enemy border for example, that's on you.

 

[Tekamthi]

How can units get "stuck"? If you mean your explorer is trapped between coast/mountains and enemy border for example, that's on you.

when they peace out from war sometimes they get bumped into random spots, occasionally a big group of units. The AI also isn't as good as recognizing potential stuck situations, so could help them to have a way of getting out of it

on the stuck issue itself, i'd just give units a way to 'recall to capital' on a 5 turn delay or something.. simple.. as long as AI can recognize when they're stuck, they should be able to activate such a feature

 

[adan_eslavo]

when they peace out from war sometimes they get bumped into random spots, occasionally a big group of units. The AI also isn't as good as recognizing potential stuck situations, so could help them to have a way of getting out of it

on the stuck issue itself, i'd just give units a way to 'recall to capital' on a 5 turn delay or something.. simple.. as long as AI can recognize when they're stuck, they should be able to activate such a feature

Exactly. It looks pathetic when unit is blocked in peninsula when a city automatically expands and block the way out. You simply cannot know it is a peninsula, because of FoW. I saw in one of my games Shoshone's Scout staying there for dozens of turns.

 

[Stalker0]

when they peace out from war sometimes they get bumped into random spots, occasionally a big group of units. The AI also isn't as good as recognizing potential stuck situations, so could help them to have a way of getting out of it

on the stuck issue itself, i'd just give units a way to 'recall to capital' on a 5 turn delay or something.. simple.. as long as AI can recognize when they're stuck, they should be able to activate such a feature

I personally like this better, you could use the gift a unit interface kind of thing

 

[CppMaster]

on the stuck issue itself, i'd just give units a way to 'recall to capital' on a 5 turn delay or something.. simple.. as long as AI can recognize when they're stuck, they should be able to activate such a feature

I'd prefer the temporary open borders, assuming AI won't have problems with that, because the teleport feels unnatural and gamey.

 

[Tekamthi]

Yeah it would be better gameplay wise in some respects, though if ob is denied they're still stuck.

I was just thinking of quick fixes really.. some kind of alternative open borders, with AI trained to use it at least somewhat effectively, would be a preferable option.

 

[ma_kuh]

I actually kind of liked Civ6's approach to open borders. Or more accurately, I liked how they flipped it to locking Closed Borders behind a civic (kind of like a Policy tech), so early on you never get caught on borders at all, you just pass through. Once you lock your borders, you also get the ability to open them back up.

I don't know if anything like that would be doable with Civ5, though. And it of course would open up issues with deciding if that small barbarian hunting party is actually trying to war with you or not, which the AI may not be able to handle well. (Or maybe it would be just fine, with it asking if they are literally "just passing through"?)

 

[rkkn]

ah, this would be great.
Rather than for "stuck" recon units, I primarily want to use it for passing through that 1 coastal water tile a city grew to that blocks me from sending a settler through, or that blocks me from exploring the other side of the continent

I'd also make it come with inability to declare war for a few turns, to make it harder to use for pre-war positioning. something similar to having weapons confiscated at the border. So that the one granting passage doesn't have to be as wary.
And yeah, the option to trade it for gold would be good. I imagine that if it's in the discuss menu, anyone who's indifferent about you will just always say no, and that's kind of lame.

I liked how they flipped it to locking Closed Borders behind a civic

yeah, same. It's better when open borders is the default. Makes more sense to me too

 

[Anarcomu]

Not solving the issue about early scouts, however considering blocks after war, what about giving a 5 turn automatic open border ? Just enough time for units to move around. Maybe also remove the auto-back-to-frontier from peace ?

 

[CppMaster]

How about if scouts were allowed to travel through territories without open borders, but couldn't finish their move there? Then also pillaging and capturing civilians couldn't be done.

 

[adan_eslavo]

How about if scouts were allowed to travel through territories without open borders, but couldn't finish their move there? Then also pillaging and capturing civilians couldn't be done.

That would be neat. Once I got and reworked a mod that allowed them to travel through any territory, but also to stop there. I would prefer that to be the VP feature.
Also this could be done via special promotion with a duration time.

 

[Tekamthi]

Once I got and reworked a mod that allowed them to travel through any territory, but also to stop there.

building on this, I set them to be able to travel through any undeveloped territory, with vision reduced to 1 -- ie who's gonna notice a scout in a wild, untended forest for these borders to even matter -- this helped stuck scouts early but tbh made for more opportunities to get stuck later. I think the 100% free travel version was a little too free, ruined the sense of the unknown.

Another compromise that might be simply implemented is to allow a DoF to enable an open-borders-like travel through water plots only, at least up until some tech is researched. The idea that any ancient nation was excluding others from sailing by, way off the coast, is kinda silly, thematically... I think this only really became a legal concept in the renaissance irl. AI probably already sufficiently evaluates relevant considerations for DoF

 

[adan_eslavo]

I think the 100% free travel version was a little too free, ruined the sense of the unknown.

True.

 

[azum4roll]

I personally like this better, you could use the gift a unit interface kind of thing

I'd rather not allow this kind of shortcut that can teleport a unit halfway through the world.

 

[rkkn]

indeed I would primarily use a recall for not-actually-stuck scenarios. My pathfinder just finished exploring everything but is on some far flung archipelago and has barbarian galleys prowling around, and would take 12+ turns to get back anyway even with no danger? recall

 

[adan_eslavo]

indeed I would primarily use a recall for not-actually-stuck scenarios. My pathfinder just finished exploring everything but is on some far flung archipelago and has barbarian galleys prowling around, and would take 12+ turns to get back anyway even with no danger? recall

Definitely not.