[Vote] (7-07) Polynesian Maori Warrior Proposals

[Recursive]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

Host Note: For sanity reasons, the Polynesian UU changes will be voted on separately from the Polynesian UA/UI changes, which are in the next voting thread.

VP Congress: Session 7, Proposal 7
Discussion Thread: (7-07) Maori Warrior As Scout Replacement
Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor: @pineappledan

Proposal Details
Current Maori Warrior (Longswordsman)
22 CS
cheaper
Does not require Iron
Unlocks at Chivalry
Haka War Dance (-15% CS to adjacent enemy units)

Proposal Maori Warrior (Scout)
Unlocks at Sailing
90
13 CS (+3)
No Movement Penalties
Treasure Hunter
Amphibious
Haka War Dance (-15% CS to adjacent enemy units)

Rationale:
I find I do not use Maori Warriors much in their current form. They aren't very strong, and Polynesia doesn't war much in Medieval.
In 4UC, Polynesia has a unique scout and it is much more useful. This proposal would be to essentially move that unique scout into the main mod.
A more powerful scout is very useful for Polynesia, who has a longer scouting and settling phase than other civs because of their access to deep ocean. A stronger scout is useful, because they can clear barbs for settlement spots on distant islands better.
We don't have a unique Scout unit, so this is also more unique. This would unstack Polynesia from Japan (Samurai)


VP Congress: Session 7, Proposal 7a
Discussion Thread: (7-07a) Maori Warrior Buff
Proposer: @azum4roll
Sponsor: @azum4roll

Proposal Details
Split off from the huge Polynesia/Shoshone/Huns proposal, but still dependent (see below). Host Note: The huge proposal has been split up. The Polynesia change (proposing to restore its combat aura) will be voted on with the other Polynesia UA/UI changes, while the Shoshone and Huns changes will be voted on with the other proposals that change the Shoshone and the Huns.

Current Maori Warrior:
Replaces Longswordsman
Same (22)
Cheaper (140 vs 160 ) (note that Pikeman is 135 )
Unlocked at Chivalry instead of Steel (same tier)
Doesn't cost Iron
Extra promotion - Haka War Dance: -15% Combat Strength on Adjacent Enemy Units.

Problems:

• Last congress moved Moai's combat strength aura to Encampment.
• Maori Warrior was designed having the +20% CS in mind, and losing the aura made them the worst UU in the game. You simply can't feel the strength.

Proposed Maori Warrior:
Replaces Longswordsman
23 (+1)
Cheaper (140 vs 160 ) (note that Pikeman is 135 )
Unlocked at Chivalry instead of Steel (same tier)
Doesn't cost Iron
Extra promotion - Haka War Dance: -20% Combat Strength on Adjacent Enemy Units. Embarking and Disembarking cost only 1 Movement.

Changes:

• +1 Combat Strength
• Negative combat aura 5% stronger
• Gain island hopping ability, synergized with UA Fishing Boats construction

Note:
If Polynesia gets the Moai aura back, Haka War Dance's combat aura stays at -15%.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

What will the Pineappledan proposal mean for 3/4UC-players?

 

[Recursive]

What will the Pineappledan proposal mean for 3/4UC-players?

He will need to update the mod for compatibility.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Well I mean if the Koa becomes the main UC what will be the secondary in 3/4? The maori warrior?

 

[pineappledan]

The koa is not becoming the main UU, I am proposing to move the Maori Warrior to scout. The Koa unique Scout from 4UC will have to be moved elsewhere and be given different bonuses, or replaced with a different UU.
Even if the Koa were simply moved to be a longsword replacement and the existing bonuses reshuffled a bit, it would still work a bit better than now, considering the koa is more similar to a swordsman than the staff-wielding MW.

However, I'm considering giving Polynesia a unique Caravel or Trireme called Vaka Nui instead. It's weird that Polynesia doesn't have a unique boat, even with 2 UUs. Moving the maori warrior into a timing and combat class where it's not a wasted slot will allow them to have that. Also the Vaka Nui is more pan-polynesian than the Koa, which is specifically Hawaiian. Since it is the Polynesian civ, and not the Hawaiian civ, a unit that can represent the entire region is preferable.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Okay thanks, then I can vote!

 

[azum4roll]

I'll repeat my disdain for any recon UU. AI always spams their UU, but a 13 melee in early Classical isn't very strong. Which means they're for actual scouting, which makes them an inferior version of the Bandeirantes.

They have basically lost any uniqueness when upgraded to Explorer, since both the negative combat aura and Amphibious require them being on the frontline to work.

Plus they take up precious early supply - if you spam scouts, you aren't going to be able to defend yourself.

Conquistadors get a pass from me because they can actually fight for ~2 tech tiers before becoming underpowered.

 

[Stalker0]

but a 13 melee in early Classical isn't very strong.

Its the same strength as a horseman before the aura, but its cheaper and has no resource cost, nor does it take extra damage from spearman. And can get a +50% defense, or can move like 4 spaces through forest, ignore rivers, bypass ZOC, etc.

I think you underestimate the power here.

 

[pineappledan]

It can't quite go blow for blow with swords, but it's more than a match for spears and horses.

 

[azum4roll]

At the same time, Spearman/Swordsman exists and can actually have promotions that give universal CS.

Pure movement bonuses (OR defensive bonuses) aren't going to help them win fights.

The biggest problems lie on the recon upgrade path though. Unlike other UUs, they're not upgrading into anything useful when massed. And you'll see AI continue to build these until Railroad.

 

[ScarletArkyning]

However, I'm considering giving Polynesia a unique Caravel or Trireme called Vaka Nui instead.

Sounds interesting! Any ideas for what it does yet or will it be a secret?

 

[pineappledan]

haven't decided yet, no. Thats a discussion for the 4UC mod thead.

 

[azum4roll]

A ship UU would fit Polynesia much more, but VP rarely adds new units as UU (I think the only one is Bandeirantes?)

 

[Stalker0]

The biggest problems lie on the recon upgrade path though. Unlike other UUs, they're not upgrading into anything useful when massed. And you'll see AI continue to build these until Railroad.

I guess one question mark that we should clarify in the OP, would the hakka war dance aura continue on upgrade or is it lost with the scout version?

 

[pineappledan]

It is retained on upgrade, same as now.

 

[Stalker0]

Ok, so that means that an upgraded scout is never "useless" in a fight. You would still have explorers that are super good barb killers in their own right with the aura, would still be able to amphibiously attack cities (now granted they would take a lot of damage, but under a naval vessel it's an option), and would be able to support the main army with the aura.

I agree that the upgrade path is the weakest link in the chain, and if people wanted to vote no because of it I can respect it. I think its at least cooler than what we have today and really meshes well with Poly's normal beeline to sailing anyway.

If we were to do it again (or perhaps as a follow-up if it passes). Perhaps the Hakka War Dance should be like "+3 CS, -15% CS for adjacent enemies", and then remove the base CS boost from the scout. That would mean your remaining recon line would still get some CS boosts....not as much as for the scout (the benefit would naturally get weaker over time), but it would be something to keep all of the recon units you make more combat worthy.

 

[pineappledan]

They’d be like super flankers, similar to how you can use skirmishers now. Setting up flank bonus and adding a CS debuff.

I’m not fussed about the upgrade path, because the current timing and tech location of the longsword MW made it kind of irrelevant in my games when I tried them.

A unit with a “bad” upgrade path that I will build
Vs.
A unit with an “good” upgrade path that I won’t build

The whole debate is a little ridiculous to me anyways. UUs obsolete, that’s a big part of how they work. Being focused on whether the upgrade path is acceptable to you is to treat UUs as a permanent bonus

 

[Stalker0]

The whole debate is a little ridiculous to me anyways. UUs obsolete, that’s a big part of how they work. Being focused on whether the upgrade path is acceptable to you is to treat UUs as a permanent bonus

Though I agree with you on the scout idea in general, I disagree here. Many UUS people judge not just on its immediate benefit, but on the legacy it leaves. So yes, people do see UUS as a "permanent bonus".

Ultimately the legacy of the scout is its biggest weakness. Its not big enough for me to vote no, but yeah its not ideal. Now I do agree that the current Maori is pretty lame and I don't build them too much so its not like it has a great legacy either (and with the scout you will have access to the aura MUCH earlier and so will keep it around longer).

 

[azum4roll]

Ok, so that means that an upgraded scout is never "useless" in a fight. You would still have explorers that are super good barb killers in their own right with the aura, would still be able to amphibiously attack cities (now granted they would take a lot of damage, but under a naval vessel it's an option), and would be able to support the main army with the aura.

I agree that the upgrade path is the weakest link in the chain, and if people wanted to vote no because of it I can respect it. I think its at least cooler than what we have today and really meshes well with Poly's normal beeline to sailing anyway.

If we were to do it again (or perhaps as a follow-up if it passes). Perhaps the Hakka War Dance should be like "+3 CS, -15% CS for adjacent enemies", and then remove the base CS boost from the scout. That would mean your remaining recon line would still get some CS boosts....not as much as for the scout (the benefit would naturally get weaker over time), but it would be something to keep all of the recon units you make more combat worthy.

To use the aura at all it needs to be in melee range. It's not going to survive.

How are they beelining to Sailing? They only need Fishing for the boats, and they get enough ruins to upgrade all Pathfinders for free.

UUs obsolete, that’s a big part of how they work. Being focused on whether the upgrade path is acceptable to you is to treat UUs as a permanent bonus

Yet every UU is still better than its counterpart after it's upgraded, with the exception being Bandeirantes, which really is part of the UA anyway.

Are they worse at Chivalry than Steel? If yes we can always change it back.

 

[Stalker0]

To use the aura at all it needs to be in melee range. It's not going to survive.

Recon units with survival can tank just fine. They aren't going to be able to sit there all day and take it like a strong infantry can, but unless you are throwing them into circles with 3 enemy melee units they can take some hits (especially as the melee units will have a weaker attack).

And further, you can always move them in, attack with all of your buddies, and move them back out if you are worried about longevity in some situations, similar to how you might use skirmishers.