7.2.3 Barbarians

Questdog

Prince
Joined
May 25, 2010
Messages
517
Location
Lexington, KY
I am playing my first game with 7.2.3 and I always play the first game with a mod on Immortal/Standard/Standard/Continents (with CS by the way).

Anyway, I am on turn 72 and have yet to meet my first Barbarian. Is this normal? All the games I play with my custom speed (slightly slower than Marathon research/slightly slower than Epic builds) have me fighting for my life with the Barbs by turn 35. Been awhile since I played at Standard speed with your mod and I can't remember when the Barbs showed up then.

One cool thing that happened to me, that hasn't happened before, is I sent a Warrior through a City State's territory to explore a little peninsula behind them and when I tried to return, the CS planted a unit on the only exit hex and would not move him! So he is stuck there until I hit Optics.....
 
One cool thing that happened to me, that hasn't happened before, is I sent a Warrior through a City State's territory to explore a little peninsula behind them and when I tried to return, the CS planted a unit on the only exit hex and would not move him! So he is stuck there until I hit Optics.....

That has definitely happened to me before. City-states for some reason leave units planted in a spot for huge amounts of time, but they probably will eventually move it.
 
That has definitely happened to me before. City-states for some reason leave units planted in a spot for huge amounts of time, but they probably will eventually move it.

I'm not complaining. I think it makes more sense for the AI to leave units alone unless they have something to do with them. I wish the non-CS Ai would do this. I always thought it way awfully silly that every turn they shuffle their units around and back. Pick a spot and let them dig in!
 
I reduced the frequency the AI shuffles units around because as you pointed out, it removes fortification bonuses.

I've been trying to double barbarian spawn rate for a long time now. I haven't had much success at it... the only variable that seems like it should do so (camp spawn chance) doesn't seem to have much effect. I did reduce the distance required between camps... but they don't seem to be distributed very evenly, just makes them clump up a lot.
 
As I said, on slower speeds (and especially without CS, but even with), the Barbarians (with your mod) are a royal pain in the patooty (as they should be), spawning at a seemingly prodigious rate. But at Standard speed, they are no where to be found for quite a while and then only in small numbers.

Standard = Turn 81, before I saw my first Barbarian (and there never was more than one at a time to deal with from then on)

Marathon = Turn 2, I meet my first Camp and by turn 35 it is difficult to accomplish anything. Warriors must be sent in pairs, because one will simply be eliminated. And even two are sometimes hard to keep alive. Scouts are an exercise in frustration, since they have zero chance of actually scouting anything before they are consumed by the hordes. 2 Warriors to explore (together) and 2 to guard a worker leaves little left to try to clear camps, though clearing camps isn't much help anyway since they will soon spawn back into existence (often exactly where you just destroyed them). My last game was indeed a challenge in the early game, since both spots I wanted to plant my first two cities on were occupied by Camps. And one of the camps, in particular, was very hard to dislodge, since it was on the coast and had two Galleys sitting behind it to snipe any of my units that approached. Usually two Warriors can take out one Brute in his Camp, but not always and especially not if a Galley (or two) is on guard. Even the inland camps are not gimmes, since 1) there are often 5 or 6 Brutes and/or Poachers in the area and 2) you never know when a Brute will magically appear beside your wounded Warrior and put him out of his misery.

So it seems to me (from experience) that you have succeeded in your aims for Barbarians on Marathon speed, but for some reason Standard is refusing to cooperate.
 
How many games have you played and had that same experience? I always play marathon with raging barbarians, and I think they're fairly balanced now, but still ignorable. It's nice that a single warrior can't usually take out a camp by themselves anymore, but a spearman or archer has no problem with it. I've still never had them threaten a city beyond a little pillaging, and I never lose a scout unless I do something stupid like end its turn on open terrain.
 
How many games have you played and had that same experience? I always play marathon with raging barbarians, and I think they're fairly balanced now, but still ignorable. It's nice that a single warrior can't usually take out a camp by themselves anymore, but a spearman or archer has no problem with it. I've still never had them threaten a city beyond a little pillaging, and I never lose a scout unless I do something stupid like end its turn on open terrain.

The Marathon experience described above is typical and not isolated for me. Though I have changed Marathon speed for me to make research a bit slower and Builds to occur at Epic Speed (actually slightly slower). And now that you mention it, I bet that is why my experience is different, since I changed the Barbarian variable to 150 (from 300).

I bet, Thal, that LOWERING the Barbarian variable in the Game Speeds would accomplish what you are trying to do!

Edit: and the experience described on marathon above is WITHOUT raging barbarians selected.....

Edit: and don't read my descriptions as complaints; I like the Barbarians being a pain....
 
Just did a quick test of <BarbPercent> setting in the GameSpeed xml.

It appears to control the rate at which Barbs spawn from a camp and Lower equals faster.

I set <BarbPercent> to 500 on Standard speed and fired up a vanilla game on a standard map and went exploring. After 30 turns and churning out nothing but scouts, I found about 8 Barb Camps, but not a single Barb roaming around outside a camp.

I then set <BarbPercent> to 10 and fired up another vanilla standard game and after 20 turns I found about 5 camps. The first one I found very early and had no Barbs outside, but every camp I found after that had 2 or three Barbs standing around the camp. And the last one I found had 3 outside the camp and another popped into existence on the next turn.

Edit: I forgot to mention that 100 is the default setting for <BarbPercent> on Standard speed and the default setting on other speeds matches the common modifier for the rest of the settings; i.e. Epic = 125.
 
Faster-spawning barbs is good but are risky for balancing... it makes Askia weaker and Bismark stronger for example.

I'd like to instead make the game spawn twice as many camps, with a normal spawn rate per camp... this is the part I haven't been able to accomplish. Most of the time when I clear out the turn-1 camps from my area the barbarian presence nearly disappears, so the spawn rate per-camp doesn't help much if the camps themselves aren't respawning. :undecide:

There is a "BARBARIAN_CAMP_ODDS_OF_NEW_CAMP_SPAWNING" variable but I'm not sure how it works. Setting it to 10 (vanilla value is 2) doesn't result in 5 times as many camps. I think it loops through all plots on the map, and for each plot checks map.rand(100) <= odds. This would only control how fast camps respawn when killed, not change the maximum number of camps on the map at any one time, which isn't what I'm trying to accomplish either.

Update:
Hey I think I found it! Your mention of the GameSpeed table made me realize I needed to look outside the global defines... and in the Worlds table I discovered a FogTilesPerBarbarianCamp value. I'm going to try halving this in the next beta to see what happens.
 
And it seems to me, if you have twice as many camps, spawning at the default rate, then you'll have twice as many Barbs running around anyway, plus have twice as many camps, which means the only difference between your desired method and the GameSpeed method would be to put more gold on the map to grab (besides Bismark's ability, if confined to camps).
 
The two methods are very different:

  • Camp barbs have +40%:c5strength:.
  • They spawn right there, adding more unpredictability. We can usually see wandering barbs coming from a distance (unless they're chariots/horses).
  • Barb promotions best match the terrain around their camp.
  • Killing a camp barb gives 30:c5gold:.
#1-3 make the camp method somewhat more challenging than increasing the amount of wandering barbs. Combat is more difficult, with a slightly greater economic reward, and this shift from combat to post-combat rewards is one of my design philosophies.

Bismark's ability is "barbarians surrender when defeated" without qualifiers. Since wandering barbs are easier than camp barbs, increasing the number of wanderers makes the game easier for Bismark by increasing the wander:camp ratio. For the same reason, it makes the game harder for Askia, who benefits from a low ratio.

It looks like the fog variable does in fact control the maximum number of camps on the map, while the "minimum distance" variable in global defines controls camp density. The problem is I play on the continents plus map script which has lots of islands, so most of the camps were spawning on uninhabited islands, leaving the mainland continents mostly barb-free. By capping out the fog variable to its maximum and just changing the density, this problem should be avoided. :D
 
The wondering Barbs are the ones that cause the havoc though.....

Barbs in their camps are just experience and gold sitting there waiting for you to go get it.

And did you change Bismark's ability? because I thought for sure I read somewhere that it was only barb's in camps that could be converted. (It's been awhile since I played Bismark and I can't remember)...
 
I haven't seen wandering barbs cause damage in a few months. It's easy to kill them before they have an opportunity to pillage because they prioritize our units and resource-improved tiles... instead of beelining to whichever improvement is closest and least-defended. It's very often a barb will slowly move around a city+archer to get at a resource on the other side, bypassing all the farms on the way, only to die. :)

Barbarians in camps capture settlers/workers. This creates a 2-tile zone around each camp that requires escorts until the camp is cleared. Since the camp barb has high defensive strength, making it harder to kill, it can significantly hamper early expansion. Once chariots appear it's even more challenging since it creates 4-tile capture zones.
 
I haven't seen wandering barbs cause damage in a few months. It's easy to kill them before they have an opportunity to pillage because they prioritize our units and resource-improved tiles... instead of beelining to whichever improvement is closest and least-defended. It's very often a barb will slowly move around a city+archer to get at a resource on the other side, bypassing all the farms on the way, only to die. :)

Barbarians in camps capture settlers/workers. This creates a 2-tile zone around each camp that requires escorts until the camp is cleared. Since the camp barb has high defensive , mstrengthaking it harder to kill, it can significantly hamper early expansion. Once chariots appear it's even more challenging since it creates 4-tile capture zones.

When they come at your city en masse, they are not easy to kill and do often destroy improvements. Every game where I have several different luxury resources available near my capital, I am always tempted to expand as fast as possible to snatch the spots before the AI. And almost always, I regret it, since the Barbs make me pay for neglecting security.

What makes Barbs a challenge (to me), is having them disrupt your infrastructure and this threat makes you always think security first, especially in the early game. This only comes from the wandering barbs and wandering barbs in quantity. If you can count on only one Barb showing up at your city at a time, then you only need one unit to police the area. He, along with the city sniper, can maintain security (and with Oligarchy, he is a free unit so the only cost was the production time and with Honor he's boosting happiness, so you'd want him there even without the Barbs). When you have to expect two or three Barbs showing up at a time, you have to provide more security and this, more than anything, inhibits your early growth as a player since you must build units and helps give the AI a chance at claiming the prime real estate in the player's vicinity.

The Camp sitters are relatively harmless and and only inhibit settling of cities if they happen to sit on the exact hex you want your settler to build. Most of the Workers and Settlers you find in camps have been captured by wandering Barbs and sent back to the camps. But most of all, the Camp sitters are predictable. As you say, they have a zone around the camp that they will attack occasionally and that's it. The player realizes this and it is easy to avoid confrontations that you don't want; the AI on the other hand.....

I mean think about it: Which is more frustrating to your schemes? 6 Barbs running amok on your improvements and chasing your workers to hiding or 6 Camps sitting out there in the grayed out area?

One more point and I'll wrap up this too long post: When a camp is spawning Barbs and sending them into your territory at a steady rate, it means that if you don't do something about that camp (and the others in the area that are joining with him to make your life miserable), you'll never get to improve your plots efficiently. Especially after you have three or four hexes improved, you just don't have enough warriors to keep the Brutes off all of them. This spurns you to go take on the tougher Brutes in the camps. Without the camps pumping out the wanderers quickly, you can safely ignore them until you want to go hunting for fun and profit.

I really enjoy my early games when the Barbs are making life tough and a rough start makes the rest of the game much more challenging.

Edit: it is also more of a challenge when you go to clear out a camp and find three other Barbs sitting around the camp fire....
 
Ahh I see. The reason I don't have difficulty with wandering barbs is I play conquest games... I kill off camps as they spawn, and don't get more than an occasional stray barbarian at my cities.

Something to point out is doubling camps does double wandering barbs too, so it's not an either/or exclusive case. Mainly it just helps out Askia. :)
 
Ahh I see. The reason I don't have difficulty with wandering barbs is I play conquest games... I kill off camps as they spawn, and don't get more than an occasional stray barbarian at my cities.

Something to point out is doubling camps does double wandering barbs too, so it's not an either/or exclusive case. Mainly it just helps out Askia. :)

The rate at which Barbs spawn in my games, it does not matter what type of game you are going to play. It's in the first 50 moves or so (I play slow speeds) that Barbs are causing the most havoc. And there is no way you could have enough units to go squishing all the camps as they spawn.....

Once you've got things going, of course, the Barbs are easier to deal with, but the rate at which they spawn in my games, even if you send a unit or two immediately to go squish a newly spawned camp, you'll likely find a couple of Barbs protecting the Camp once you get there. Which, if nothing else, makes the battles a little more tactical and enjoyable.
 
That's probably more a factor of marathon gamespeed settings, then. I don't want to push players to barbarian defense too much, since the AI is not very good at defending their workers and settlers, and we can't directly edit the AI. In my current game I found 3 Spanish settlers in barb camps around their borders. :)

It can be countered somewhat with AI combat bonuses against barbarians... but I found if I make it too high, they'll walk around squashing all the camps themselves, which runs into balance issues for Askia.
 
That's probably more a factor of marathon gamespeed settings, then. I don't want to push players to barbarian defense too much, since the AI is not very good at defending their workers and settlers, and we can't directly edit the AI. In my current game I found 3 Spanish settlers in barb camps around their borders. :)

It can be countered somewhat with AI combat bonuses against barbarians... but I found if I make it too high, they'll walk around squashing all the camps themselves, which runs into balance issues for Askia.

Is there anyway to give AI settlers and workers a defense? So that the Barbs have to subdue them rather than just step on them, which would give them more of a chance to run away. Or some way to respawn them if they are lost?

By the way, I do find workers and settlers in Camps occasionally, but it does not seem to be a big issue in my games. Most of the workers I find belong to CS's (who cares) and the settlers are fairly rare (i.e. not every game)
 
Ok.....7.2.4.....My increase in spawn rate for Wanderers and your increase in spawns of camps do not go together well....well for the player, that is; I'm sure the Barbarians were having a blast...

Epic speed (with Marathon research): Turn 29, capital is surrounded by 7 archers, turn 35 Brute shows up, turn 40 Capital would have capitulated if Barbs were allowed to capture cities....

Guess I'll have to tone it down a bit.....
 
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