(7-25a) Carthage Gets More Trade Routes

[azum4roll]

Then you get 2 TRs on raze and resettle.

 

[Rekk]

yeah I really don't like that. You are still getting the crazy amount of TRs, but only if you don't get into any wars? No other civ's UA is that brittle, where some pillages can completely turn it off for the rest of the game.

It's a temporary bonus, the length of which is determined by player skill. Your trade route cap is also chasing you, so unless you're settling some truly awful cities and tanking your happiness, I don't think you are going to end up absurdly ahead of what other civilizations have.

Then you get 2 TRs on raze and resettle.

True.

 

[Stalker0]

It's a temporary bonus, the length of which is determined by player skill. Your trade route cap is also chasing you, so unless you're settling some truly awful cities and tanking your happiness, I don't think you are going to end up absurdly ahead of what other civilizations have.


True.

With respect TR pillaging is too random an occurrence. While sure you can try to have units protect them there are too many occurrences where a stray Barb unit or a war declaration is going to take them out. You can go for all ITRs to reduce the risk (which seems out of theme with carthages focus on resource diversity), but some of this is pure luck of the game

And then we haven’t even started on the stepping on venices toes angle

 

[Rekk]

Addendum 2:
- reverted change to Resource Diversity. The UA has double diversity as current, the UNW has +25% diversity as current.

 

[usadefcon1]

With respect TR pillaging is too random an occurrence. While sure you can try to have units protect them there are too many occurrences where a stray Barb unit or a war declaration is going to take them out.

A little randomness is okay. Morocco is the problem.

 

[pineappledan]

Not to overstate my support for this proposal. I like my own design, but I am not worried about the possible randomness of barb spawns and the inability to completely avoid TR pillages in an entire game.

With respect TR pillaging is too random an occurrence. While sure you can try to have units protect them there are too many occurrences where a stray Barb unit or a war declaration is going to take them out. You can go for all ITRs to reduce the risk (which seems out of theme with carthages focus on resource diversity), but some of this is pure luck of the game

It's a tough challenge, but you make it sound like the player has no control against having their TRs pillaged and that's simply not the case. There is undeniable risk that you might lose TRs, but that is what makes the bonus interesting. Your core game strategy is to try to dominate as much coastline as you can while keeping your boats as safe as possible. Trying to outrun your trade cap by as much as possible. That's far more interesting than what she has now; it turns the occupied/trade cap number in your top ribbon into a sort of progress bar for style points.

If you consider the bonuses Carthage has now and what is being proposed:
Old carthage gets 125 and a lighthouse, worth 150 and 1 per turn maintenance on settle.
New carthage gets a cargo ship worth 140 on settle and a free Harbor at Currency

A free cargo ship isn't as strong of a bonus ultra-early, but the potential to go over trade cap and harbour both have better legs in the mid game than the current bonuses.
If Carthage doesn't manage to get over trade cap for an extended period of time, the free harbors ensure that not only can carthage exceed cap, she can hit cap faster and earlier than other players because she has faster access to cargo ship purchases.
She can also "get back up on the horse" fairly easily and straightforwardly. You just have to settle some unclaimed patch of dirt the arctic or win a war with some razing and you're back to the races.

And at the end of the day even if Carthage never gets over cap, she will still have the following advantages over current carthage in midgame:
- the existing resource diversity modifier
- free global harbours, saving her more GPT on maintenance.
- scaling XP on unit purchases, a combat bonus that stays relevant throughout the game.

And then we haven’t even started on the stepping on venices toes angle

The current overlap between Carthage and Spain's gold on settle is far more egregious, IMO.
Tying bonus cargo ships, ignoring trade cap, by settling cities is very different from Venice, who gets extra trade cap and can't settle cities conventionally.

 

[hokath]

Morocco is the problem.

Morocco is going to destroy this part of the UA, no question. Can only imagine multiplayer balance (with or without Morocco) will also be poor.

In general I like this idea, but it just seems a little too out-there. It's going to vary so much with map type and generation, size, identity of the opponents in the game, and relative starting locations.
Maybe if the trigger were tied to "every X techs" it would feel more consistent but I'm not so sure. Ultimately the fact that you can "lose the UA" from a bad episode doesn't sit right with me, so I'm more inclined to go for the Pdan version at the moment.

 

[pineappledan]

The fact Carthage's kryptonite civ is practically from next door, just a bit west of the same coastline, and had some of its oldest cities founded by Carthage, is pretty funny to me.

 

[Rekk]

Maybe if the trigger were tied to "every X techs" it would feel more consistent but I'm not so sure. Ultimately the fact that you can "lose the UA" from a bad episode doesn't sit right with me, so I'm more inclined to go for the Pdan version at the moment.

You're not even "losing the UA". Even if you never go above the trade cap, you're ahead in yield gain.

 

[pineappledan]

Indeed. Multiple concern is that even disregarding the ability to have trade units over cap, this has several buffs over current Carthage besides.

I don’t like the diversity modifier staying; having both more AND stronger TRs is too far.

 

[Stalker0]

Indeed. Multiple concern is that even disregarding the ability to have trade units over cap, this has several buffs over current Carthage besides.

I don’t like the diversity modifier staying; having both more AND stronger TRs is too far.

if the main point is the free trade units…then just do this:

1) any time your TR route number is increased by tech, or your trade unit is pillaged, gain a free cargo ship.

And then balance around that. Now Carthage gets a base of free trade units, and can instantly recover from any trade unit lost. Much cleaner and easier to balance around

 

[pineappledan]

Ewww… that’s both weak and boring. Barely a couple hundred gold worth of value every era or so. All it does is save you a couple clicks.

 

[Stalker0]

Ewww… that’s both weak and boring. Barely a couple hundred gold worth of value every era or so. All it does is save you a couple clicks.

never said it should be the dominant part of the UA, but cargo ships are actually quite expensive to build, the first cargo ships can take 8 turns to make!

 

[Legen]

The free Cargo Ship only goes over the cap until you unlock more trade slots. Research Sailing or getting old on Treasure Fleet, for instance, and Carthage loses part of the UA. It is as if Carthage had China's "bonuses halved when..." as they progress in the tech tree.

The current overlap between Carthage and Spain's gold on settle is far more egregious, IMO.

Spain was changed to mirror Carthage, not the other way around. Originally, Spain gained food instead of gold.

 

[KlHannibal2]

It sounds like you're just considering adding the cargo ships on settle with no trade cap increase. That sounds much more interesting.

If your UA gives you trade units with no slots then if you max your slots before settling you can go over your cap limit. You would have a minigame with Carthage where you're constantly trying to expand while also trying to guard your cargo ships (and they are ALL naval cargo ships) as much as possible.
So you have this push/pull of trying to get as much space as you can while also making sure your shipping lanes are completely safe, because your UA pushes you over trade cap once they are gone they are gone.

Morocco just pee'd himself a little.

But it can also be very frustrating to get the main benefit of your UA pillaged away with no way of recovering it.

 

[KlHannibal2]

How about getting a cargo ship and a trade slot for each coastal city after the capital, to the cap of let's say 6 (number open for debate)?

That would make quickly settling coastal cities a priority. The UA would be useful throughout the game and couldn't be removed by unlucky pillaging or by Morocco. At the same time, losing the free cargo ship early is still painful as it takes a long time to rebuild. The quinquereme would get another use in protecting early trade routes.

As for Venice, you would get more trade routes early, but fewer later. You want to go wide while Venice goes tall. That feels unique enough for me.

 

[rkkn]

But it can also be very frustrating to get the main benefit of your UA pillaged away with no way of recovering it.

well you could say the main benefit of the UA is a free cargo ship. those things are expensive. Plus you can't get them until classical. It's not so dissimilar from the current 125 gold and free lighthouse. A starting bonus, and an advantage that others can't get until sailing, and saves on production too.

 

[Stalker0]

well you could say the main benefit of the UA is a free cargo ship. those things are expensive. Plus you can't get them until classical. It's not so dissimilar from the current 125 gold and free lighthouse. A starting bonus, and an advantage that others can't get until sailing, and saves on production too.

To be clear I don't mind the idea of a bonus that fades with time. Just as right now carthage gets a bunch of gold when they settle, but then its spent and its gone. That's fine.

My issue is just how variable this bonus could be. You might have 30 TRs for the entire game if you are able to keep it peaceful. You might lose your first extra TR slot the second you get it because of an unlucky barb camp spawn.


If someone had instead proposed: "Anytime Carthage settles a city they get gold equal to a random value between 50 and 300 gold)....people wouldn't go for it. Its too variable, too random. I feel the same way about the concept above.

 

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