[DLL] (7-NS) defensive buildings destroyed as corresponding city hp is lost

[Stalker0]

If we did only walls and castle, I'd probably make the thresholds correspond to the yellow/green/red hp bar for city ie lose walls at 33% DMG, lose castle at 66%. Is there some reason I'm overlooking this couldn't work?
It wouldn't work out to the building hp value exactly but it's still a valid trigger for their loss.

Lets try an example. Imagine a Pop 12 Castled City

Base HP = 300 + Population * 10 = 420 HP
Walls = +125
Castle = no HP change
Total HP: 535

Ok so lets just use 33% and 66% hp lost for the example. Or 66% and 33% Hp remaining

So 66% of HP = 353 (shown as 353 / 420 hp on the city). Alright you do this 67 damage, and the walls are destroyed. Which means the total hp drops to 295. My hp is now 244 / 295 So 33% of this hp = 97. So then after another 147 damage the castle would get destroyed.

Summary:

• 67 damage to destroy the walls
• 147 more damage to destroy the castle (214 damage total)

Example 2:

Pop 25 City with Arsenal
HP = 300 + 25 * 10 + 125 (Walls) + 300 (Arsenal) = 975 hp

66% of HP = 644. At 644/975 walls would drop (new HP = 644/850). 331 damage dealt
33% of 850 = 281. Castle will drop out 281/850, having taken another 363 damage

Summary:

• 331 damage to destroy Walls.
• 363 more damage to destroy Castle (694 damage total)

 

[Tekamthi]

Yeah I see what you mean, this problem exists in my original theorycraft to some extent as well but only as a visual quirk -- the city hp bar will appear to fill up to the player as the building is lost. To my taste we had a quick text indicator floating up and this resolves the visual aspect.

I particularly like the red/yellow/green thresholds but the text message when these pop might be sufficient alternative for visuals -- it would be nice to be able to predict at a glance as the threshold approaches as well, however, and 85% isn't very visually predictable when looking at a bar. Perhaps this is a nitpick though.

 

[Stalker0]

Yeah I see what you mean, this problem exists in my original theorycraft to some extent as well but only as a visual quirk -- the city hp bar will appear to fill up to the player as the building is lost. To my taste we had a quick text indicator floating up and this resolves the visual aspect.

I particularly like the red/yellow/green thresholds but the text message when these pop might be sufficient alternative for visuals -- it would be nice to be able to predict at a glance as the threshold approaches as well, however, and 85% isn't very visually predictable when looking at a bar

note my original math was wrong, I have corrected that post.

 

[Rekk]

You could have it equal to the HP that they add

 

[CppMaster]

Because people didn't like that Naval units have higher CS than Land units, that other people advocated for to be necessary in order for Naval units to have any relevance at all.

Ehh, kinda gamey...

 

[Rekk]

Ehh, kinda gamey...

Yep.

 

[Stalker0]

You could have it equal to the HP that they add

Castle doesn't add any HP

 

[CppMaster]

what buildings do we want to function this way?

I'd include all mainly defensive buildings, regardless of their 3D representation, for consistency. So: Walls, Castle, sth, Arsenal and Military Base.

 

[ma_kuh]

I guess what you want is that the max HP remains constant even as the building is ruined, but you want the CS bonus to be removed. I don't know how you go about doing that, is there like a "ruined Walls" dummy building that gives max HP but some mechanism where you can't recover it? Or do Walls have "provides +6 CS while city HP > 66%"?

Also, in terms of which buildings, I'd limit it to just the Walls Line, to keep the rule simple. I'm fine living with some HP boosts not being destroyed in the interest of clarity.

 

[Tekamthi]

Let's imagine we do this, will it feel weird having to rebuild walls and castles in the modern era? Right now it's not as noticeable as they generally just sit there, never showing up in any player decision outside of city capture/rebuild -- maybe I need to go another route with this proposal, some model for obsolescence as well as destruction

 

[ma_kuh]

You already need to rebuild Walls and Castles if you capture the city. I think the point of breaking these buildings while wearing down the city, instead of just when the city falls, is threefold:

1. Apply economic pressure to a city, even if you peace out before killing it, by forcing them to rebuild defensive buildings
2. Make capturing a city easier in multiple waves of pressure; right now breaking 33% HP and backing off doesn't really net you anything, and if you aren't blockading the city it just regenerates by the time you regroup
3. A thematic component where war causes buildings to blow up

 

[Tekamthi]

A thematic component where war causes buildings to blow up

For me this is the biggest point. Point 1 also wraps into this, mind you. I enjoy thematic things slightly more than most here, but will try to make this proposal into a thematically-minded compromise between the other 7-57's.

The original 7-57 says we should be able to blow up a lot of things; this is good thematically, as the irl model this is all based on allows a lot of things to be blown up, probably even more than any proposal has ever proposed. But blowing everything up is perhaps not good gameplay.

The counter proposals say we shouldn't be able to blow up anything at all, and instead just represent the destruction of urban warfare in changed states, numerically. That's fine, maybe even good, but misses the entire point of 7-57, that destruction is FUN. 1Here we will say we will blow up only the things we can see, as we need limits for gameplay reasons, and ultimately it's much more fun to blow up things you can see than things you can't. Also, the things we can see happen to be the most blow-up-able.

As a kid did you ever kick over a sandcastle or a snowman or smash a jack-o'-lantern? We wouldn't do this as adults, of course , but remember how satisfying that moment was? Would it have been even more satisfying to do it in the dark, so you couldn't even see the result? No. So... castles and walls -- here's what I'm thinking for amendment:

The threshold for losing both will be going into the red in hp bar ie <34% as follows:

• Metallurgy-or-later siege unit that attacks city while hp bar is red destroys walls.
  
• Flight or later bomber unit that attacks city while hp bar is red destroys castle.
  
• Both can be rebuilt and the process repeated infinitely.

I have some other thematic ideas in mind but I think this is all it needs, one option to blow something up with siege, one with air. No extras. Pushing their destructability later is both thematically satisfying and minimizes the impact of their loss to occur only when they are smaller % of total strength, rather than big proportional chunks early on... Minimal compatibility and balance impacts. If you're getting hit by siege or bombers when city in the red, most of the time the battle is already decided.

 

[Rekk]

• Metallurgy-or-later siege unit that attacks city while hp bar is red destroys walls.
• Flight or later bomber unit that attacks city while hp bar is red destroys castle.

now we're just getting fiddly.

 

[Tekamthi]

now we're just getting fiddly.

Best to limit it from occurring too early, no? Worse to lose walls when they're 40% of city strength than when they're 10%.

 

[ma_kuh]

I think it doesn't really do anything at that point though, right? How long does it take to rebuild them at that stage, a few turns? And you're now getting free culture if Progress, science from Bank if you rebuild? And the building has already provided most of its CS if you're waiting until 34% I feel.

 

[Tekamthi]

I think it doesn't really do anything at that point though, right? How long does it take to rebuild them at that stage, a few turns? And you're now getting free culture if Progress, science from Bank if you rebuild? And the building has already provided most of its CS if you're waiting until 34% I feel.

It would be slight, I think that's best direction here. Some destruction to satisfy that itch, but no more than a taste.

The other proposals can and probably should be paired alongside this one when voting to some extent. If you want more, vote for more! No conflict here

 

[Legen]

So, let's say you take down a Wall. Two turns later, the enemy rebuilds it, adding +125 HP back to the city immediately.

The destruction of defensive buildings could end as an unintended buff to the defender, since rebuilding it could act as a strong heal during a siege.

 

[Tekamthi]

So, let's say you take down a Wall. Two turns later, the enemy rebuilds it, adding +125 HP back to the city immediately.

The destruction of defensive buildings could end as an unintended buff to the defender, since rebuilding it could act as a strong heal during a siege.

Aye, good point. Only way to handle this I can think of would be to block building of these while under the threshold. Want walls for your city? Can't be a near-ruin, gotta clean things up first... ie heal back up over the 33%. Enemy can keep it below if it wants to block any unintended buffs. Drawbacks to this?

Otherwise this brings me back to perhaps needing to obsolete these things. The instant yields is also a problem. Could just say no yields on these buildings outside of their era+1, but we getting into all kinds of exceptions

 

[Rekk]

And you're now getting free culture if Progress, science from Bank if you rebuild?

no, you don't get anything for building something a second time.

 

[Tekamthi]

no, you don't get anything for building something a second time.

Well that takes care of one big concern then. Would still have to restrict building of walls and castle to only being possible when over hp threshold. Is that palatable?