7 Myths About CIV Players That Fooled Developers at Firaxis

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So many intersecting topics, man I came late :(

I will say, I think map readability is extremely important, especially for newcomers, but somehow, the map still needs to look... Believable.

Not necessarily ultra realistic but the map should feel varied from section to section, to give you that feeling that the world is genuinely huge, to give more meaning to the exploration. I haven't seen a Civ game do it particularly right but I really liked the attention to detail in Humankind climates.
 
The current Steam charts are honestly painful to look at and for me the blame lies squarely with Civ switching every era mechanics. That single design choice has done more harm than people are willing to admit. It's the same mechanic that crippled Humankind in its bid to stand toe-to-toe with a titan like Civilization(and they did so many things great).

I know many argue it's not a big deal, but let’s be real, if the developers released a new Civ game that either returned to the classic mechanics or completely reimagined things—ditching the era-based civ switching and the artificial 'Ages' system, it could breathe life back into the franchise.

Personally, I never even gave this version a fair shot and I don’t plan to. That mechanic was enough of a red flag for me.
 
All those questionable myths, half of which are clearly not even true, and he didn't mention by far the most obvious and massively important one: Firaxis' belief, openly confessed in one of the interviews, that players identify themselves with the leader, not with the civilization - paving the way for the original sin of civ switching that has obliterated the playerbase.

THAT is truly catastrophic myth to believe. A leader has always been more of a third-party diplomatic face given of the Other rather and yet another set of mechanical bonuses attached to the civ rather than any sort of the player's embodiment. There have been many succesful historical games with faceless countries (Age of Empires, Europa Universalis...), not many with avatars leading whatever. Nobody has ever wanted the game to have civ switching and greater focus on leaders as the players' avatars. People have always been clearly more excited that Vietnam comes, and that they can play as Vietnam, not any particular character. People wanted interesting "archeological" civs even at the cost of excuse pseudo-leaders, but not huge personalities that you can attach to whatever. There was no demand for the civ switching; on the opposite, a gigantic % share of the playerbase has been repulsed by it, with no movement in the opposite direction. You have a huge % of the playerbase who loathe civ switching, and on the other side you have at best "yeah cool idea though I could live without it". So the total sum of the emotional sentiment is highly negative.

How could they believe this and what were the sources for such ridiculous belief is beyond me. The game is called Civilization, not Leader. Its motto has always been to build a civilization to stand the test of time, not to become a leader to stand the test of time. Before civ7 I have seen an (unrealistic) demand "please give multiple leaders per civ, which change across ages" like 20x more frequently than the civ switching. They have somehow masterfully made a slam dunk change precisely opposite to the wishes of the fanbase.

I've been thinking a lot about this. I agree with your overall point that the game is called Civilization for a reason. And civ players were not demanding civ-switching. This was a huge unforced error on Firaxis' part. But, I think the myth might be a little bit of a half-truth. The fact is that some players do identify with leaders. There is a reason some leaders in the civ franchise have become so iconic like nuclear Ghandi or crazy Montezuma. And many players do describe their games in terms of the leaders they are facing, not the civ they are facing. For example, people will say things like "Catherine launched a surprise attack against me!" not "Russia launched a surprise attack against me". The leaders are often the stand-ins for their civ. The fact is that civ's historical leaders work a lot better than Humankind's nameless avatars precisely because many players do like to role-play as a certain historical leader. So I don't really blame the devs from reading certain comments and thinking that players care about the leaders.

I would add that the decision to do civ-switching was not just because devs thought players cared more about leaders than civs. The devs wanted to do civ switching for actual gameplay reasons too. Specifically, they believed civ-switching would solve the problem of some civs being useless in the early game because their bonuses only kick in later in the game. So the devs came up with the idea of designing civs for each Age and having players switch to Age appropriate civs. That way players are always playing as a civ that has relevant bonuses to the Age they are in. The devs believed this would add better balance in the game.

And civ-switching also fit with the devs' vision of layers of history, where players are building a civ on top of the legacy of the previous civ similar to history where the English built their civ on top of the legacy of the Normans or the Byzantines which built their civ on top of the legacy of the Eastern Roman Empire. Lastly, civ-switching seemed to fit the devs idea of civs rising and falling in History. Civ switching adds "realism" where you no longer have Antiquity civs lasting to 2000AD but we see Antiquity Age civs falling and Exploration Age civs rising.

My point is that there were gameplay and historical "realism" reasons for civ-switching which I think convinced the devs that it was worth doing. I think the myth was more of a justification after the fact. They could use the myth that players care more about leaders to justify to themselves that the fanbase will be ok with the radical change since they will identify with the leader and won't care as much if the civ changes. Obviously, that was a big mistake.

Lastly,I think a lot the negative reactions towards civ-switching is not really about players identifying with the civ per se but more about players feeling that it is too much of a departure from the core civ experience. Case in point Emotional Husky's Civilization Stories in this video below lists keeping a civ from start to finish as one of the fundamental core elements that defines the civ game.


I've seen comments on this forum as well as on the civ7 Facebook group that echo this same sentiment, saying things like "Every past civ game has been about taking a civ from the bronze age to the future age, it is about a civ standing the test of time, it was literally the motto on the civ2 box back in the day, this breaks from that long standing tradition, it is not a civ game anymore!".

So the complaint is not that the player identifies with a civ but that civ-switching is anathema to the core identity of what makes civ a civ game.
 
I've been thinking a lot about this. I agree with your overall point that the game is called Civilization for a reason. And civ players were not demanding civ-switching. This was a huge unforced error on Firaxis' part. But, I think the myth might be a little bit of a half-truth. The fact is that some players do identify with leaders. There is a reason some leaders in the civ franchise have become so iconic like nuclear Ghandi or crazy Montezuma. And many players do describe their games in terms of the leaders they are facing, not the civ they are facing. For example, people will say things like "Catherine launched a surprise attack against me!" not "Russia launched a surprise attack against me". The leaders are often the stand-ins for their civ. The fact is that civ's historical leaders work a lot better than Humankind's nameless avatars precisely because many players do like to role-play as a certain historical leader. So I don't really blame the devs from reading certain comments and thinking that players care about the leaders.

I would add that the decision to do civ-switching was not just because devs thought players cared more about leaders than civs. The devs wanted to do civ switching for actual gameplay reasons too. Specifically, they believed civ-switching would solve the problem of some civs being useless in the early game because their bonuses only kick in later in the game. So the devs came up with the idea of designing civs for each Age and having players switch to Age appropriate civs. That way players are always playing as a civ that has relevant bonuses to the Age they are in. The devs believed this would add better balance in the game.

And civ-switching also fit with the devs' vision of layers of history, where players are building a civ on top of the legacy of the previous civ similar to history where the English built their civ on top of the legacy of the Normans or the Byzantines which built their civ on top of the legacy of the Eastern Roman Empire. Lastly, civ-switching seemed to fit the devs idea of civs rising and falling in History. Civ switching adds "realism" where you no longer have Antiquity civs lasting to 2000AD but we see Antiquity Age civs falling and Exploration Age civs rising.

My point is that there were gameplay and historical "realism" reasons for civ-switching which I think convinced the devs that it was worth doing. I think the myth was more of a justification after the fact. They could use the myth that players care more about leaders to justify to themselves that the fanbase will be ok with the radical change since they will identify with the leader and won't care as much if the civ changes. Obviously, that was a big mistake.

Lastly,I think a lot the negative reactions towards civ-switching is not really about players identifying with the civ per se but more about players feeling that it is too much of a departure from the core civ experience. Case in point Emotional Husky's Civilization Stories in this video below lists keeping a civ from start to finish as one of the fundamental core elements that defines the civ game.


I've seen comments on this forum as well as on the civ7 Facebook group that echo this same sentiment, saying things like "Every past civ game has been about taking a civ from the bronze age to the future age, it is about a civ standing the test of time, it was literally the motto on the civ2 box back in the day, this breaks from that long standing tradition, it is not a civ game anymore!".

So the complaint is not that the player identifies with a civ but that civ-switching is anathema to the core identity of what makes civ a civ game.

I think the biggest "own goals" part of the civ switching came with the initial previews they ended up too much with the "Egypt to Mongolia" type of meme from people, rather than previewing things as like Egypt-Songhai, for example, which at least is a little closer to natural (or even like Egypt-Abasid).
Second, I think they really should have aimed to launch with more civs. It's hard enough in a new civ game to go from like 50 civs in the previous game down to the like 18-20 we normally get, even with "30" civs, when you split to 10 per era, it just makes very few natural paths. I think if they could have pushed to launch with like 45 civs, 15 per era, even if that meant we had 2-3 less leaders, that would keep a bunch more natural progressions, that might be less jarring.
Third, I do think while the current system does lend itself well to more leaders who weren't direct leaders, or leaders which we don't have civs for, the fact that the game is essentially talking about really associating with your leader, we didn't have nearly enough of the "big" names that we expect. Cut down a couple of the Machiavelli, Lafayette, Rizal, Ibn, Tubman, Confuscius, etc... choices, and give us a couple more of the Alexander, Montezuma, Genghis types. Probably the initial roster should have been more like 6 truly epic names (Napoleon, Alexander, Elizabeth, etc...), 6 leaders who might be civ fan favorites but not necessarily household names (Catherine, Hatshepsut, Pachacuti types), and 6 names of relative newcomers (the group I listed above), and then maybe you throw a couple personalities on a few of them as needed. Give us the core roster, and if you want to add in more of the wildcard names, you can pair them with more known civs. So don't worry that the Deluxe pack is Amina/Lafayette, if you're putting them in with like Portugal and a few other civs people will aim for. Or you just make sure those leaders have interesting enough abilities, people will buy them even if they're not the biggest names.
 
My personal guess is that eras and civ-evolutions will be part of the next, great 4x game, but not in the form we've seen them so far.

By eras, I mean game rules that evolve over time. I think this will be key to keeping the late turns from bogging down into long, tedious click-fests of increasingly meaningless decisions. But the transition from one era to the next will need to arise organically from in game events, be subject to player agency, and feel seamless, not disjointed.

By civ-evolution, I mean the potential to change traits over time, including potentially civ and city names, but only under the full control of the player. I don't believe having the ability to start as the Hittites and evolve into Byzantium would be a problem, I think it would be a fun feature. But being forced to drop your starting civ and not being able to start as Ancient America is a problem. Such a big problem, frankly, that I'm still shocked Firaxis leadership didn't identify it as a possible show-stopper.

Also, Genghis Khan will be in the base version of the next, great 4x game. Some unforced errors are easy to avoid. :lol:
 
I wonder if instead of eras, they could draw inspiration from the 4X genre and develop the Explore, Expand, Exploit and Exterminate concepts. These could somehow become something like modes for your civ that you can switch between, each of which bring in different mechanics, depending on where you build up focus for your civ. No concern about identity changing, because these are ways your civ expresses itself. This seems like it would be much more dynamic than the whole world teleporting from the ancient age to renaissance to build the same buildings on top of the old ones, but now with bigger numbers.
 
I've been thinking a lot about this. I agree with your overall point that the game is called Civilization for a reason. And civ players were not demanding civ-switching. This was a huge unforced error on Firaxis' part. But, I think the myth might be a little bit of a half-truth. The fact is that some players do identify with leaders. There is a reason some leaders in the civ franchise have become so iconic like nuclear Ghandi or crazy Montezuma. And many players do describe their games in terms of the leaders they are facing, not the civ they are facing. For example, people will say things like "Catherine launched a surprise attack against me!" not "Russia launched a surprise attack against me". The leaders are often the stand-ins for their civ. The fact is that civ's historical leaders work a lot better than Humankind's nameless avatars precisely because many players do like to role-play as a certain historical leader. So I don't really blame the devs from reading certain comments and thinking that players care about the leaders.

I would add that the decision to do civ-switching was not just because devs thought players cared more about leaders than civs. The devs wanted to do civ switching for actual gameplay reasons too. Specifically, they believed civ-switching would solve the problem of some civs being useless in the early game because their bonuses only kick in later in the game. So the devs came up with the idea of designing civs for each Age and having players switch to Age appropriate civs. That way players are always playing as a civ that has relevant bonuses to the Age they are in. The devs believed this would add better balance in the game.

And civ-switching also fit with the devs' vision of layers of history, where players are building a civ on top of the legacy of the previous civ similar to history where the English built their civ on top of the legacy of the Normans or the Byzantines which built their civ on top of the legacy of the Eastern Roman Empire. Lastly, civ-switching seemed to fit the devs idea of civs rising and falling in History. Civ switching adds "realism" where you no longer have Antiquity civs lasting to 2000AD but we see Antiquity Age civs falling and Exploration Age civs rising.

My point is that there were gameplay and historical "realism" reasons for civ-switching which I think convinced the devs that it was worth doing. I think the myth was more of a justification after the fact. They could use the myth that players care more about leaders to justify to themselves that the fanbase will be ok with the radical change since they will identify with the leader and won't care as much if the civ changes. Obviously, that was a big mistake.

Lastly,I think a lot the negative reactions towards civ-switching is not really about players identifying with the civ per se but more about players feeling that it is too much of a departure from the core civ experience. Case in point Emotional Husky's Civilization Stories in this video below lists keeping a civ from start to finish as one of the fundamental core elements that defines the civ game.


I've seen comments on this forum as well as on the civ7 Facebook group that echo this same sentiment, saying things like "Every past civ game has been about taking a civ from the bronze age to the future age, it is about a civ standing the test of time, it was literally the motto on the civ2 box back in the day, this breaks from that long standing tradition, it is not a civ game anymore!".

So the complaint is not that the player identifies with a civ but that civ-switching is anathema to the core identity of what makes civ a civ game.
Which is why they should have let you have the option of keeping the Name of the civ but have new uniques based on some other civ from the proper time period or take the new name with the new uniques

Saying Rome changed from a Cultural-Militaristic Capital focused civ to a Exploration Age Expansionist-Militaristic Naval Conquistador civ to a Modern Cultural-Diplomatic Revolutionary civ..... is an interesting alternate Roman Empire history...
and Letting the player say that "It was Rome" that did this as opposed to Rome-Spain-Mexico makes it more interesting

or to talk about the Ancient Diplomatic-Cultural League making Americans... that had a Militaristic-Diplomatic Castle and Civil Law Expansion Age and finally became the Modern Economic Expansionist Industrial powerhouse America...
Being able to say it was all American as opposed to Greek-Norman-America...is more satisfying.

And They could have allowed a Choice... yes the Ancient Americans would have had Hoplites and the Expansion Romans would have Conquistadors (or Keshiks or Mosques, etc.) but you could still call them Americans or Romans (or go with Greeks/Mongols/Abbassids if you chose that option)
 
Maybe it's just me, but this seems like standard-issue influencer rage bait? Not to say the conversation hasn't been interesting, but the whole point of the video seems to be to get rage clicks and comments.
 
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I think the biggest "own goals" part of the civ switching came with the initial previews they ended up too much with the "Egypt to Mongolia" type of meme from people, rather than previewing things as like Egypt-Songhai, for example, which at least is a little closer to natural (or even like Egypt-Abasid).
Second, I think they really should have aimed to launch with more civs. It's hard enough in a new civ game to go from like 50 civs in the previous game down to the like 18-20 we normally get, even with "30" civs, when you split to 10 per era, it just makes very few natural paths. I think if they could have pushed to launch with like 45 civs, 15 per era, even if that meant we had 2-3 less leaders, that would keep a bunch more natural progressions, that might be less jarring.
Third, I do think while the current system does lend itself well to more leaders who weren't direct leaders, or leaders which we don't have civs for, the fact that the game is essentially talking about really associating with your leader, we didn't have nearly enough of the "big" names that we expect. Cut down a couple of the Machiavelli, Lafayette, Rizal, Ibn, Tubman, Confuscius, etc... choices, and give us a couple more of the Alexander, Montezuma, Genghis types. Probably the initial roster should have been more like 6 truly epic names (Napoleon, Alexander, Elizabeth, etc...), 6 leaders who might be civ fan favorites but not necessarily household names (Catherine, Hatshepsut, Pachacuti types), and 6 names of relative newcomers (the group I listed above), and then maybe you throw a couple personalities on a few of them as needed. Give us the core roster, and if you want to add in more of the wildcard names, you can pair them with more known civs. So don't worry that the Deluxe pack is Amina/Lafayette, if you're putting them in with like Portugal and a few other civs people will aim for. Or you just make sure those leaders have interesting enough abilities, people will buy them even if they're not the biggest names.

Good points. If Firaxis had added more civs at launch and added more of the fan favorites for leaders, I think civ-switching might have been an easier pill to swallow.

And I get that the devs like to try new leaders so that they are not doing the same leaders in every game. But I will admit that it was very odd to me that civ7 did not have some of the "greats" like Alexander or Genghis. These are such obvious choices and so iconic for the franchise. I am not against the new leaders like Machiavelli or Tubman but I feel like they probably would have been better as DLCs.

Adding more civs at launch would definitely have helped by giving players more natural paths. I don't think players would mind civ switching as much if they could at least pick civs that fit a natural, logical, historical progression. It would preserve a sense of historical immersion. A big issue with civ switching is that it breaks immersion when the civ switching makes no historical or logical sense. As someone who does like to role-play history in my civ games, I find it rather disconcerting that as my favorite civ (Rome), I can't switch to Italy. If I am Rome, I should be able to be Italy in the Exploration Age, why do I have to pick another civ like Spain or Normans?

I think an "easy" compromise for fans who hate civ-switching would be to give every Antiquity Age civ an Exploration and Modern Age version with the same name. civ7 already does this with China. So you could add an Exploration version of Egypt and a Modern verison of Egypt. I feel like mods could probably do this. This would allow players to stay with the same civ name the whole game if that is how they like to play, while still getting Age appropriate bonuses. And it would not require the devs to throw out the civ swicthing mechanic that is so ingrained in the base game.
 
Which is why they should have let you have the option of keeping the Name of the civ but have new uniques based on some other civ from the proper time period or take the new name with the new uniques.

Agree 100%. It seems like such an obvious solution. It preserves the civ switching mechanic that the devs wanted to put in the game. It let's players get Age appropriate bonuses to preserve the balance between civs. But it also gives players the choice of keeping the same civ if that is what they want. So it would satisfy players who don't like civ switching. Giving players choice is a good thing. I think whenever you force players to play a certain way that is when you create problems.
 
Agree 100%. It seems like such an obvious solution. It preserves the civ switching mechanic that the devs wanted to put in the game. It let's players get Age appropriate bonuses to preserve the balance between civs. But it also gives players the choice of keeping the same civ if that is what they want. So it would satisfy players who don't like civ switching. Giving players choice is a good thing. I think whenever you force players to play a certain way that is when you create problems.
Well, it's not really altering how players play the game. It just replaces one word with another basically, though I know that matters to people.I do thnk that the main reason it got the backlash it did was how it was intruduced. People decided from the start that they wouldn't like it, and weren't going to be convinced otherwise.
 
I do thnk that the main reason it got the backlash it did was how it was intruduced. People decided from the start that they wouldn't like it, and weren't going to be convinced otherwise.

True. I remember the first marketing pieces that showed Egypt switching to Mongolia. That got lots of people riled up because it was seen as forcing ahistorical switching. Also, we got all the "civ7 is a Humankind clone" memes. There was a hate by association. People assumed that civ7 was doing the same feature that they hated in Humankind. It predisposed some people to hate civ switching in civ7 before the game even came out.
 
People decided from the start that they wouldn't like it, and weren't going to be convinced otherwise.

I'm not sure about this. If early reviews had been more positive, I think people might have been more inclined to give it a chance. Not everyone, but many people, particularly if there are other aspects of the game they're interested in. To me, its less about how the idea was introduced and more about how it was implemented in the first place. Linking civ switches to hard-break era jumps make it seem more like you stop being X at the end of Act 1 and jump into suddenly re-starting as Y for Act 2.
 
I don’t think the problem is it never sold, it sold at least moderately well initially and then the people who bought it mostly stopped playing it, and then the bad reviews from the people who bought it and stopped playing (recent Steam reviews are at 37% recommending, which only counts people who bought and didn’t refund the game) discouraged other people.
 
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Second, I think they really should have aimed to launch with more civs. It's hard enough in a new civ game to go from like 50 civs in the previous game down to the like 18-20 we normally get, even with "30" civs, when you split to 10 per era, it just makes very few natural paths. I think if they could have pushed to launch with like 45 civs, 15 per era, even if that meant we had 2-3 less leaders, that would keep a bunch more natural progressions, that might be less jarring.
I'm hoping that this was a developers v publisher argument that was surely spotted very early on in the cycle; the weighing up of day 1 sales with a small number of leaders/civs (whatever number was planned/3) against DLC sales of additional leaders/civs. If Firaxis were planning to cut the game into 3, they probably should have started with a similar number of leaders/civs than CivVI finished with..
 
My personal guess is that eras and civ-evolutions will be part of the next, great 4x game, but not in the form we've seen them so far.

By eras, I mean game rules that evolve over time. I think this will be key to keeping the late turns from bogging down into long, tedious click-fests of increasingly meaningless decisions. But the transition from one era to the next will need to arise organically from in game events, be subject to player agency, and feel seamless, not disjointed.

By civ-evolution, I mean the potential to change traits over time, including potentially civ and city names, but only under the full control of the player. I don't believe having the ability to start as the Hittites and evolve into Byzantium would be a problem, I think it would be a fun feature. But being forced to drop your starting civ and not being able to start as Ancient America is a problem. Such a big problem, frankly, that I'm still shocked Firaxis leadership didn't identify it as a possible show-stopper.

Also, Genghis Khan will be in the base version of the next, great 4x game. Some unforced errors are easy to avoid. :lol:
Want to expand on this, because you hit many of the elements of the game I've been contemplating recently.

First, the trend towards some kind of Era or Age differentiation in 4X games. It seems to be solidly entrenched now, since not only Civ but Humankind, Ara and Millenia have fully embraced it. I completely agree that it is a handy mechanic to manage transitions in the historical record that the games want to (sort of) model.

On the other hand, all Eras/Ages are both artificial in that none of them applied to the whole world at the same time, and as modeled in too many games, utterly Euro-centric and non-applicable to most of the world, and so become artificial game mechanics rammed down the throat of the poor Aksumite, Mayan or Chola player.

- And, doubling down on the worst parts of any Era system, forcing your Civ through a bunch of changes up to and including complete dissolution when there is no in-game reason for it or no way to avoid it, no matter how brilliant your play has been up to that point.

Put simply, the Era system, at least as modeled so far and especially in Civ VII, is a strait-jacket forced upon the player that mandates the flow of the game regardless of anything the player does. Whether they articulate it or not, that is probably the thing that rankles most players more than anything else in the game.

Civ VII's specific, overwhelming problem is not Ages or Civ switching or even the complete Sheep Leap (or Flock Up) that is the Modern Age set of Techs and Units. It is the lack of gamer choice in almost every part of the game.

You cannot choose to play any non-Antiquity Civ in Antiquity - or any other Out Of Age Civ outside their specific Age.

You cannot choose a starting biome for your Civ-Leader combination, only the basic map type. If I want to play on an Arboreal Forest (Taiga) or Temperate or Tropical Rough starting position, I cannot: I take what the game assigns to my Leader-Civ combination (and, by the way, in most cases that seems to be Tundra regardless of the combination: as in Civs 5 and 6, I find myself restarting 90% of my games trying to get a non-Arctic start for my distinctly non-Arctic Civ)

If your game goes distinctly pear-shaped for your Civ - as in, finding a complete lack of viable trade routes for your Aksumite boats - there is no changing any of your characteristics to match the in-game situation, until the artificial Age Change - and then your choice is an almost-entirely new Civ with, too frequently, only a passing relationship to your previous Civ.

And the worst part of all this is that, without meaningful choices in too many parts of the game, you wind up playing almost the same way every time. Your little 'victory paths' in each Age are set by the game design, your Civ is set in all its aspects from the start of each Age, you have almost no way to adapt to your terrain and neighbor situation in the game, and so very quickly all the play becomes Rote. Having learned the best way to amass Artifacts or Relics or Codexes or Treasure Resources, you do it that way every time until you start making up 'Victory' conditions for yourself: "Can I do it without doing X, or doing it with one eye closed?".

Whether in Civ VII or some other game, we need meaningful choices in the game, and in Civ VII's case, that means more choices on on who and what we are playing from the start of game, and choices about how our Civ will adapt to changes in the game - and whether those changes and situations force/allow us to warp our Civ into another version of itself or into something largely New - not completely new, because Culture is extremely durable and changes constantly - Arabic Syria under the Umayads or Abbasids might have seemed largely Brand New, but the Mesopotamian background was still there, and the influences from both west (Byzantium) and east (India, Central Asia, Persia) were 'warping' the Arabic states even as they basked in their conquests.

Put that into the game, and give the gamer a real chance to Write Their Own Narrative, and One More Turn becomes a real aspiration instead of just a forlorn hope.
 
I've been thinking a lot about this. I agree with your overall point that the game is called Civilization for a reason. And civ players were not demanding civ-switching. This was a huge unforced error on Firaxis' part. But, I think the myth might be a little bit of a half-truth. The fact is that some players do identify with leaders. There is a reason some leaders in the civ franchise have become so iconic like nuclear Ghandi or crazy Montezuma. And many players do describe their games in terms of the leaders they are facing, not the civ they are facing. For example, people will say things like "Catherine launched a surprise attack against me!" not "Russia launched a surprise attack against me". The leaders are often the stand-ins for their civ. The fact is that civ's historical leaders work a lot better than Humankind's nameless avatars precisely because many players do like to role-play as a certain historical leader. So I don't really blame the devs from reading certain comments and thinking that players care about the leaders.

I would add that the decision to do civ-switching was not just because devs thought players cared more about leaders than civs. The devs wanted to do civ switching for actual gameplay reasons too. Specifically, they believed civ-switching would solve the problem of some civs being useless in the early game because their bonuses only kick in later in the game. So the devs came up with the idea of designing civs for each Age and having players switch to Age appropriate civs. That way players are always playing as a civ that has relevant bonuses to the Age they are in. The devs believed this would add better balance in the game.

And civ-switching also fit with the devs' vision of layers of history, where players are building a civ on top of the legacy of the previous civ similar to history where the English built their civ on top of the legacy of the Normans or the Byzantines which built their civ on top of the legacy of the Eastern Roman Empire. Lastly, civ-switching seemed to fit the devs idea of civs rising and falling in History. Civ switching adds "realism" where you no longer have Antiquity civs lasting to 2000AD but we see Antiquity Age civs falling and Exploration Age civs rising.

My point is that there were gameplay and historical "realism" reasons for civ-switching which I think convinced the devs that it was worth doing. I think the myth was more of a justification after the fact. They could use the myth that players care more about leaders to justify to themselves that the fanbase will be ok with the radical change since they will identify with the leader and won't care as much if the civ changes. Obviously, that was a big mistake.

Lastly,I think a lot the negative reactions towards civ-switching is not really about players identifying with the civ per se but more about players feeling that it is too much of a departure from the core civ experience. Case in point Emotional Husky's Civilization Stories in this video below lists keeping a civ from start to finish as one of the fundamental core elements that defines the civ game.


I've seen comments on this forum as well as on the civ7 Facebook group that echo this same sentiment, saying things like "Every past civ game has been about taking a civ from the bronze age to the future age, it is about a civ standing the test of time, it was literally the motto on the civ2 box back in the day, this breaks from that long standing tradition, it is not a civ game anymore!".

So the complaint is not that the player identifies with a civ but that civ-switching is anathema to the core identity of what makes civ a civ game.

I think you may be wrong on your final assertion here. A thread ran a while back in the lead up to release, and the 2 most common perceptions of how to interpret and play the game making up over 50% of the responses involved the player identifying them self with the Civ rather than a leader.


It's certainly my main gripe. I could deal with Civ switching if the switches were believable, and if a leader attached to them represented the Civ. For me, I actually don't care about the leader at all, and I'd lose nothing by ditching them entirely.
 
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I think you may be wrong on your final assertion here. A thread ran a while back in the lead up to release, and the 2 most common perceptions of how to interpret and play the game making up over 50% of the responses involved the player identifying them self with the Civ rather than a leader.

That is why I called it a half-myth. I don't dispute that many players identify more with the civ than the leader. I am just pointing that many players do see value in the leader and do identify with leader as well. So I think there is some small truth to the myth. But like many of these myths, it is not 0% or 100%.
 
I never asked myself if I identified as Genghis or Mongolia because to me that's like asking a coin if it identifies as heads or tails. What I DO find weird is having Genghis paired with say, Germany. Now that's like a dog sporting a chicken head.
 
That is why I called it a half-myth. I don't dispute that many players identify more with the civ than the leader. I am just pointing that many players do see value in the leader and do identify with leader as well. So I think there is some small truth to the myth. But like many of these myths, it is not 0% or 100%.

According to that thread, the many that identify with the leader rather than the Civ is under 10%

I think this one is a pretty cut and dry total misunderstanding of their audience by Firaxis. There is an exception to a general rule, but the general rule is the fundamental opposite of what they've changed the game to be.
 
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