[Complex] (7-NS) New Tenets for Public Works and new projects

[Phosphoraptor]

I think that is unnecessary complication, PW are fine, they give happyness and spy resistance. Also progressivism is very powerful, very overpowered. Build 10+ PW in capital (it's very easy) and you get boost for science and culture like 10-15% on empire, and what about 15-20 PW in capital - it's not difficult.

Please reread the proposal thoroughly since I have edited it a lot due to feedback. This proposal does not change what PW does, 1 tenet gives free PW, 1 tenet builds it faster and the last does not even interact with it.

PR does not seem OP to me since there is another policy in Industry (+% science and culture from gold buildings) that is similar, takes just as long to build up and comes 1 era earlier.
Though ill test it on some Modern Era cities in IGE to see if the bonus is actually reasonable.

 

[Legen]

Please reread the proposal thoroughly since I have edited it a lot due to feedback.

That's an Amendment, and there's a rule for that in the VP Congress. See quote below, from the Congress guide:

When you amend a proposal, edit your original post to note the amendment and make a new post in the thread to explain what you changed about your proposal. This rule exists so that those new to the thread and those who have already read it receive the memo.

On the proposal itself, both Freedom's and Autocracy's tenets seem more powerful than they should for a T1 tenet. Freedom's in particular seems too strong, as those modifiers don't have a cap and can easily rack up with Industry. At the very least, I'd consider adding a cap to it.

 

[Phosphoraptor]

That's an Amendment, and there's a rule for that in the VP Congress. See quote below, from the Congress guide:

Edited the OP, thanks

 

[AndreyK]

Please reread the proposal thoroughly since I have edited it a lot due to feedback. This proposal does not change what PW does, 1 tenet gives free PW, 1 tenet builds it faster and the last does not even interact with it.

PR does not seem OP to me since there is another policy in Industry (+% science and culture from gold buildings) that is similar, takes just as long to build up and comes 1 era earlier.
Though ill test it on some Modern Era cities in IGE to see if the bonus is actually reasonable.

I still don't agree with you. Mercantilism gives only 3% (and 5% on repeatable is much stronger) and only to few buildings, PR are very cheap and could be spammed infinetly.

 

[Phosphoraptor]

Testing some Modern Era cases in IGE
All Worker/Spec are to personal preference (high yields > Spec > Prod)
25 turns to spam PR or process
PR costs 800 prod

Note: Looks like % modifiers do not affect Processes, Late Game big yields are going to be important for PR to be viable

Tradition Capital
All techs, buildings, NW up to Modern Era (+Seaport)
No Wonders
No Foreign TR
5 GPI and 4/6/4 GWork for W/A/M
Tradition > Artistry > Rationalism
4UC Russia (No particular reason)

Spoiler Prod, Sci,Culture and gold yields :

181.6 Prod, 138 base gold, 136.2 base sci, 215 base cult
Over 25 turns: 4540 Prod -> 5 PR complete (22 turns) -> extra 407.1 gold, 401.8 sci and 634.3 cult (1143.2 total)
Formula for PR benefit: (0.1 * yield * 22 turns) + ( 0.25 * yield * 3 turns )
Process give 25*45.4 yield=1135 yields extra

For 50 turns (very rough since no consideration for more prod/base yield/cost):
11 PR complete (49 turns) -> (0.25 * yield * 49 turns) + (0.55 * yield * 1 turn) -> extra 1766.4 gold, 1743.4 sci, 2752 cult (6262 total)
Process gives 50*45.4 yield=2270 yields extra
~ 80 yields/turn more from PR and increasing rapidly

Since processes are not affected by % modifiers, it seems 25 turns is around the breakeven point for a meh Tradition Capital (quite a long time to start getting benefits, especially for endgame, but will outscale process quickly after this even if PR cost increases with Era) and process yields stay the same. Before that you are actually losing yields by building PR instead of processes, which is important if you are racing to the next tier of units/tourism tech/Satellites. PR also does not focus on a yield, which is a downside for SV.

A normal city will take longer to break even compared to the 1st case, and even longer practically since you may need to spend production on units/wonders/diplo. It also will have poorer rewards

Here is how I interpret this:
- this will be OP if you can stay at peace (difficult when you are getting ahead in culture/science) or have high proportion of high yield cities (you are playing OCC / tall and small army / you have run away and have pretty much won)
- very slow if you have large production sinks elsewhere (defending against endgame aggression / diplo unit spam / wonders / spaceship factory)
- useless if you are already closing out the game. It is probably valid as a niche pick for peaceful playstyles, but depend on being able to commit to PR spam.

Honestly this would need maybe a modmod to try out to see if it is actually OP / can turn games around since the variance can be so high. Processes are very strong for yields but so is infinite scaling. Ill cap this to 8 per city for now.

 

[Karlos_BR]

I like the concept, but the new Tenets ideas need some more thought... I came up with the following:

Freedom:

Urbanism:
Cities gain +5 Gold, +5 Culture and +5 Golden Age Points per each Public Works project completed in a city whenever a new building is constructed on that city.
Cities gain +1 Gold, +1 Culture and +1 Golden Age Points per each building completed in a city whenever a new Public Works project is completed on that city.

Order:

Public Transport:
Public Works projects cost -20% Production.
All Processes are +10% more efficient.

Autocracy:

Monumental Architecture:
Completing Public Works projects triggers a WLTKD in the city for 5 turns.
During WLTKD, cities generate +15% Production and +15% Food(in addition to the usual effects of WLTKD).

 

[Rekk]

but the new Tenets ideas need some more thought

Why do they need more thought?

 

[AndreyK]

My capital by Modern era is larger, has some WW and yields are much higher. So, in my games those PR would be completed quicker and have more effect.

 

[hokath]

@Karlos_BR I like the cut of your jibe, but I think you are in counterproposal territory!

 

[azum4roll]

You need to compare them with regular buildings. I don't think any buildings (other than tourism ones if you go CV) are worth going for.

 

[Karlos_BR]

@Karlos_BR I like the cut of your jibe, but I think you are in counterproposal territory!

Am I? I'm sorry, didn't mean to. I was just spitballing ideas here.

 

[hokath]

No, it's fine. You can always make your own (7-32a) proposal if you think the direction of this thread is off.
Why don't you like the OP versions? (yours are completely different, so what was your thinking?)

 

[Karlos_BR]

No, it's fine. You can always make your own (7-32a) proposal if you think the direction of this thread is off.
Why don't you like the OP versions? (yours are completely different, so what was your thinking?)

Very well, OP said that he wants to add new tenets that improve Public Works, but the names he suggested("Progressivism", "Servants of the People" and "Populism") have very little to do with Public Works. I thought about what would be more thematically appropriate for Public Works, things that concern urban development that are mostly related to each ideology, so I came up with "Urbanism", "Public Transport" and "Monumental Architecture".

With Urbanism, I aim to represent the constant growth and necessity to reform in large economic centers. Stuff like new skyscrapers for large corporations, wider avenues, car-centric infrastructure, etc.
Public Transport is pretty self-explanatory. Focusing on making urban transport more efficient and affordable for more people.
Monumental Architecture is meant to represent fascist governments' interest in constructing massive monuments and over-sized infrastructure to display superiority. Stuff like the Volkshalle.

As for the effects of each tenet, I didn't really like them. I thought Progressivism felt too OP, Servants of the People too meh and Populism to be yet another military buff for Autocracy, which already has plenty of military buffs.

With Urbanism, I wanted to have a bonus that rewards developing cities, even if you already have plenty of happiness.
Public Transport makes cities in the late-game more efficient and makes it easier to manage unhappiness in large empires.
Monumental Architecture gives a short, but powerful, boost to city growth.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.