[Complex] (7-NS) Polynesia UA changes (...and Carthage)

[pineappledan]

Only if there are multiple promotions in the pool. He's only proposing one promotion in the post-combat pool. All bullet points are for one promotion, which is why the duration is in the same list as the rest of the abilities.

Oooohh.... That was unclear.
But then that creates another entirely separate complexity issue. You want to add a pre-combat promotion with 3 attributes that morphs into a post-combat promotion with 4 attributes.

 

[Tekamthi]

You want to add a pre-combat promotion with 3 attributes that morphs into a post-combat promotion with 4 attributes.

I think the number of attributes doesnt matter so much as how they combine, the singular effect these have as a temporary/situational combo. What I intend is for the pre-combat to help polynesia get to the important fights (and maybe not die as soon as they arrive in fits and starts, as often happens over longer distances), and the post-combat to help them survive the fight itself, hold onto their beachhead (not necessarily more destructive in any single instance of combat). We can be a little more creative with the pre- promo in some ways, as its very fragile and counter-able by an opponent.

I feel strongly about the underlying vision and structure in this regard, but not attached to any specific attributes. If the pre- and post- objectives can be better achieved with a different attribute mix, I'm all ears, will amend with anything specific and well-justified.

 

[azum4roll]

Too tactical for the tactical AI on a boardgame. This kind of stuff fits more in RTS games.

 

[Tekamthi]

Too tactical for the tactical AI on a boardgame. This kind of stuff fits more in RTS games.

When you refer to "too tactical" and "this kind of stuff", are you referring to the improvement promotion mechanism itself? Or some of the specifics I've selected here?

I think I can understand what you mean on the former point especially -- however recall we have a unique improvement here in that it often creates a fence-like perimeter and units MUST cross them to move to/from cities -- and it's almost always the preferred improvement for eligible tiles; activating the ability will just happen incidentally much of the time, especially on defence.

The moais are the least-tactical candidate for this improvement promotion stuff -- if it's not gonna work for them, it likely won't work for any

Is it too tactical to ever have any meaningful AI optimizations though? Even though it's not part of my proposal here, this is part of the vision: we find the best fit for improvement promotions to implement, and over long period of time devs will be inclined to make AI adaptations for better use of these, in turn creating a richer VP world for future proposals and modmods... But some things are just too complex for AI adaptations in any sense... Is this one?

 

[azum4roll]

AI (Polynesia and its enemies) wouldn't anticipate the promotion expiring, nor the fact that it'll turn into another promotion on combat.

it often creates a fence-like perimeter

On the coast. Melee units can't attack ships, so gaining a promotion on the coast wouldn't be useful. They mainly do combat inland.

 

[Tekamthi]

AI (Polynesia and its enemies) wouldn't anticipate the promotion expiring, nor the fact that it'll turn into another promotion on combat.

True -- I've moved back and forth on considering pre- promo as just a greater version of the post-; so there is less change needed to anticipate via the transition -- however I am indeed concerned this increases the tactical play, as it will be advantageous to have both promos at once by frequently reloading in the moai while the post- is still active, if both confer combat bonuses. I've settled on pre- as transit only and post- as combat only, I think this minimizes the need for tactical decision making. I think the best we can do in this regard is minimize the motivation to have BOTH applied at once

 

[Tekamthi]

Added modmod version of proposal for test driving. See attachment on OP

Moai promotion does indeed seem to trigger automatically much of the time, without planning for it, when defending around islands and peninsula's. Not so automatic outside of these environments, but it keeps a coastal focus attached to the ability anyway.

Current attribute mix isn't enough that I've been motivated to pull back as they expire, it's usually preferable to keep fighting and reload the promo if/when unit is forced to retreat from combat zone altogether, or while doing larger regrouping.

There is indeed a tactical aspect of having it as improvement promo, more pronounced during the early phase, when the improvements are yet to become ubiquitous, but it's not striking me as overbearing. I have been inclined to ensure my road designs traverse many moai's, where this was not a concern before...

Haven't yet tested with poly set as AI player, can't comment on their usage of it, but I infer they will have it active the majority of the time when human would

 

[Rekk]

I have been inclined to ensure my road designs traverse many moai's, where this was not a concern before...

This is why I would have suggested this kind of bonus to be associated with Eki or Ordo. They provide a more complete wall / are already built on roads.

 

[Tekamthi]

This is why I would have suggest this kind of bonus to be associated with Eli or Ordo. They provide a more complete wall / are already built on roads.

Agreed, I did not foresee this when I theorycrafted. I am also using the "supply abstracted healing" experiment I posted a week or two ago -- between both I've had some very windy roads to encourage units to auto path through all the necessary promos.

That said, the purpose here was to create an island-centric ability -- my thesis, if you will, for why poly struggles is that they have island settling kit but no special island holding kit -- this moai promo works best in island context where roads are less of a consideration; the theorycraft seems to hold in this regard

In my current game I am on a vast chain of islands, with many 1x1 islands spaced 1 plot apart -- makes me wish for some kind of bridge building ability (I don't play with pontoon bridges, wish I did rn)

 

[Rekk]

They had an island holding kit. It even affected naval units.

 

[Tekamthi]

They had an island holding kit. It even worked to buff naval units.

Relying on the last round's voting results as evidence, I am operating under the presumption that community sees it somehow as preferable for them not to have a straight aura. I was fine with the old kit, and raised concern that we were removing important feature without replacing last time, but here we are anyway.

It's a little odd that now we are bundling Carthage and Polynesia together but did not even bother to bundle an aura replacement last time

 

[pineappledan]

Evidently it didn't need to. I agreed that a proposal to buff Polynesia would be totally predictable, but wanted to see the AI results first.

...And the AI results are in and Polynesia sunk from bottom 15 to bottom 5, so here we are.

 

[Tekamthi]

If the experimental spirit persists this round, there's an option for it here.

I'd need help with this sponsor-wise as it requires a bugfix and structure of simple conditional check for the promo only applying to poly (we don't want captured moai to give promo to their new owner -- perhaps I just don't know non-lua way to do this), if this is to move forward. However all the database pieces are already sketched out and identified in OP attachment, as well as Lua workaround on the bugfix and conditional check

 

[pineappledan]

There are other directions I would rather try first, like doubling down on Polynesia's wide tourism, rather than moving them onto more military bonuses.

Military bonuses are already the most common kinds of bonuses. Meanwhile Polynesia's spammable UI with high has the capacity to make Polynesia the premier wide, tile-based CV civ. Based on game results, their current kit lacks the oomph to make that a winning strategy, however.

 

[Tekamthi]

There are other directions I would rather try first, like doubling down on Polynesia's wide tourism, rather than moving them onto more military bonuses.

Military bonuses are already the most common kinds of bonuses. Meanwhile Polynesia has the capacity to become the premier wide, tile-based CV civ. Evidently, their current kit lacks the oomph to make that a winning strategy.

With no other UA kit, my fave play with them right now (prior to loading this promo stuff) is to identify any archipelago nearby asap, and if present, late settle while using settler to search for both ruins and perfect capital island/peninsula, or coast with NW -- the ruin yields fill in for the late found and the objective is to get poly a religion to fill in for their weak points, which is very possible when maximizing ruins successfully (ie investing early gold in more recon, and getting somewhat lucky in locating island ruins sooner than others). Their current kit could be said to be enough if using the turn 0 ocean access to full advantage, as human is capable of. AI will never in a million years do this however, and are thus relegated to bottom tier

Considered the tourism yield but imo doesn't fit here, where all my yields are "on kill". Tourism from killing people in warzone? Just doesn't fit.

There is a certain thematic argument to be made for more war oriented abilities with Polynesia, but just as much can be said in favor of pro-tourism angle I think. IMO the war stuff is more fun for human player than flat yields, hence my preference for this route..

 

[pineappledan]

Just my opinion, but we have plenty of war civs. More than any other type, in fact. We have naval war civs, we have civs that emphasize specific combat roles, we have every stripe of that kind of emphasis. If Polynesia is going to have a niche it's not going to be accomplished by giving it tepid bonuses for alternative focuses.

Polynesia already has what it needs w.r.t. uniqueness. It can do things other civs can't, it goes places and prioritizes things other civs don't. What I think it needs is a path to victory with the bonuses it has, not an entirely new kind of bonus.

 

[Tekamthi]

If Polynesia is going to have a niche it's not going to be accomplished by giving it tepid bonuses for alternative focuses

Bonuses are slight, or tepid as you say, but they are coast/island focused. The fragile, pre combat transit promo in particular has a nice island hopping feel to it, maybe even enough on its own to be part of a proposal, with no post combat assigned (ie it just falls off in the first fight, that's it -- combined with some non-combat stuff elsewhere).

Edit: I'm going to revise to be transit-only, and non-conflicting add-on to any poly proposal. This will truly be the best fit for this concept, eliminating almost all tactic-optimization related concerns, as well as the yield issue altogether. Testing has shown that the transit portion is truly the best part of this proposal

 

[pineappledan]

...And the AI results are in and Polynesia sunk from bottom 15 to bottom 5, so here we are.

an amendment to this. Vern published a greatly expanded test game sheet, and Polynesia is not doing nearly as bad as was initially suggested. 29th out of 43

Spoiler :

 

[Tekamthi]

Good to see. Anecdotally they seem to be early victims as AI in my recent games, but that's just a small handful.

Anyway, another supporting argument for a less-is-more approach with poly. I will have a revised version of this later on, in the interest of small incremental things for their kit

 

[Tekamthi]

Revised once more, simplified and refocused: Turn timer is gone, as is the post combat promo -- what we have left is a transit & first attack promo that focuses this implementation on the island defense objective, while even better supporting poly's existing kit and intended playstyle. Have play tested through ancient and classical so far; it plays well, it's at once subtler and more useful than previous -- OP is now approximately the finalized proposal. Final draft stage anyway