[Sponsored] (7-VT) Supply Cap Rework

Status
Not open for further replies.

azum4roll

Lost the game
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Messages
4,098
Location
Somewhere
Current supply cap formula:
Flat supply = (Total of all flat sources) / (1 + X * tech progress)
Supply from population = (City 1's supply from population% * City 1's population + City 2's supply from population% * City 2's population + ...) / (1 + Y * tech progress)
Supply from difficulty = Z - (number of era passed)
Supply from general/admiral = number of generals/admirals expended

Clarifications
- Puppet cities provide half as much supply from population (except for Venice, which gets the full amount)
- When starting later than the Ancient Era, base supply from difficulty is increased by (2 * # of eras after Ancient), which is equivalent to +1 per era due to tech penalty


Total supply cap = (Sum of the above) * (1 - penalty from War Weariness)

Currently, X = 5/6, Y = 7, Z = 10 in Settler, 7 in Emperor, 6 in Deity

There are issues on supply cap balance between tall and wide, as well as the problem of having too much supply in the lategame. This proposal plans to rectify them.

Proposal part 1: reduce supply numbers over the board
Base VPTweakedWhy?
Flat Supply Divisor1 + 83% * tech progress1 + 100% * tech progressKeeping both divisors the same makes balancing easier.
Supply from Population Divisor1 + 700% * tech progress1 + 100% * tech progressKeeping both divisors the same makes balancing easier. Also, the supply from population divisor is so high that all sources from that barely matter after the early game.
Difficulty Flat Supply Bonus10 (Settler) to 6 (Deity), AI and City-States have 8+2 to the current number+1 supply in the capital to compensate the loss of supply per city.
Additional +1 to compensate the empire size penalty for having a capital.
Difficulty-based Supply from Population35% (Settler) to 15% (Deity), AI and City-States have 25%All 20%AI already gets a food bonus. They naturally have higher population than human players and don't need a higher supply from population %.
Base Supply per City+1 Supply0 SupplyYou shouldn't be allowed to just plop down a new city and magically gain supply out of it. Build some infrastructure!
Lighthouse (+ Runestone)+1 Supply0 SupplyThe supply was given to support coastal cities. But it turns out nobody builds ships either way and it is used for land units instead.
Harbor+2 Supply+1 SupplyYou may start to have a couple of Caravels and Galleasses, but never 2 per coastal city.
Seaport20% Supply from Population10% Supply from PopulationWith the tech divisor lowered to 100%, supply from population % should be heavily toned down.
Stable (+ Ducal Stable)10% Supply from Population+1 Flat SupplyProduction bonus for mounted melee obsoletes in the lategame. It's more thematically fitting to have a non-scaling supply bonus.
Walls, Castle, Bastion Fort, Arsenal, Military Base's Supply from Population (+ Walls of Babylon, Ostrog)10%/10%/10%/10%/20%All 5%With the tech divisor lowered to 100%, supply from population % should be heavily toned down.
Bastion Fort's New Change (+ Ostrog)0 Supply+1 Flat SupplyThe Navigation tech signals the age of sail. Corvettes and Frigates are both dominant combat ships and coastal cities need to have naval defense.
Parthenon+10% Supply from local Population0%Why should a random culture wonder give supply?
Royal Guardhouse (from Tradition Justice)20% Supply from local Population+10% Supply from Population in all CitiesWith the tech divisor lowered to 100%, supply from population % should be heavily toned down.
This one's made global to encourage Tradition players to grow their other cities, not just their capital.
Dominance (from Authority)+10% Supply from local Population+5 Flat SupplyEarly policy trees should have more immediate bonuses instead of scalers.
United Front (from Autocracy)+50% Supply from Population in all Cities+25% Supply from Population in all CitiesWith the tech divisor lowered to 100%, supply from population % should be heavily toned down.
France UA25% from Population in all Cities15% from Population in all CitiesWith the tech divisor lowered to 100%, supply from population % should be heavily toned down.

Other sources like Barracks are unchanged.

This reduces overall supply, still won't solve the above problems. Wide will continue to have more supply per city than tall, and lategame population still outgrows the tech penalty, despite exponential cost of growing.
Another variable is needed.

Part 2: add empire size penalty
Introducing the new Empire Size penalty: similar to Tech and Policy modifiers, you need +5% of supply per non-puppet city to reach the same supply count, just like how you need 5% more Science per non-puppet city to research a tech.

For example, if you have 4 cities, every 1.2 Flat Supply and Supply from Population will count as 1 Supply. Assuming NO researched tech and ignoring supply from difficulty/generals/admirals, a 20-city empire with 60 Flat Supply and 120 Supply from Population would have 180 / (1 + 5% * 20) = 90 supply cap.
This penalty stacks multiplicatively with the tech divisor. Which doesn't really violate the "all modifiers must stack additively" rule - all three of these are divisors, not modifiers!

The objective:
1. Tall should have higher supply per city than wide. This cannot be done with the current formula regardless of number changes (wide just has too much population per city right now), so an empire size penalty is needed.
2. Hopefully the lategame supply bloat can be addressed with the correct numbers. I expect no significant supply growth post-Industrial for the average player given the same amount of cities. Which is why I prefer keeping the tech divisor, since population still grows non-stop.

Possible questions:

Q1. Won't this make tall better than wide in warring?
A1. My aim is to make them equal assuming players evenly place their units at their borders, i.e. the supply cap to border length ratio (NOT land area; you don't need to defend the a city deep within your empire) is equal for both tall and wide. Neither should have the initial advantage, but the side with the better unit production should eventually have the upper hand, all other factors being equal.

Q2. How moddable is this?
A2. The empire size penalty per city will be yet another Defines value. Numbers can be tweaked however you want.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This penalty stacks multiplicatively with the tech divisor. Which doesn't really violate the "all modifiers must stack additively" rule - all three of these are divisors, not modifiers!
I like the idea overall, I think, but is this new penalty applied before or after the tech divisor? The order is important mathematically.

EDIT: War weariness too
 
Last edited:
I like the idea overall, I think, but is this new penalty applied before or after the tech divisor? The order is important mathematically.

EDIT: War weariness too
Tech divisor -> Empire size divisor. But does it really matter? (X / Y) / Z = (X / Z) / Y

War weariness modifier is after summing up everything.
 
How does puppets supply calculation work ?
As I read it, you get supply from them but they don't contribute to empire size.
Do they provide reduced supply in VP ?
 
How does puppets supply calculation work ?
As I read it, you get supply from them but they don't contribute to empire size.
Do they provide reduced supply in VP ?
They provide half as much supply from population for non-Venice civs and full for Venice.
 
I suspect going for a warmonger Venice if this proposal pass will be very funny then.
 
Q1. Won't this make tall better than wide in warring?
A1. My aim is to make them equal assuming players evenly place their units at their borders, i.e. the supply cap to border length ratio (NOT land area; you don't need to defend the a city deep within your empire) is equal for both tall and wide. Neither should have the initial advantage, but the side with the better unit production should eventually have the upper hand, all other factors being equal.
But why? Shouldn't a bigger empire be just better at war?
 
very nice. supply definitely needs a rebalance imo

The supply was given to support coastal cities. But it turns out nobody builds ships either way and it is used for land units instead.
whether or not this is true is heavily map dependent
In my most recent game where supply was an issue, almost half of my supply was used on Liburnas
(default settings Communitu mapscript btw. just with a lot of coastline)

I don't think the lighthouse supply should be removed
 
Last edited:
Bastion Fort's New Change (+ Ostrog)0 Supply+1 Flat SupplyThe Navigation tech signals the age of sail. Corvettes and Frigates are both dominant combat ships and coastal cities need to have naval defense.
wait a sec... Bastion Fort is not a coastal building. This gives supply to all cities, not just coastal. The rationale doesn't make sense.
 
This whole proposal seems unnecessarily complex. I don't disagree with the initial sentiment, but it's too convoluted to implement, IMO. Why not just have units cost more supply by era? First era is 1 supply, second era units are 2 supply, third era units are 3 supply, and so on...
This "fix" not only fixes this thread's issue, but other too-many-units-based threads as well.
But why? Shouldn't a bigger empire be just better at war?
No.

Civilization, as a game, has already been way too focused on warfare since its inception. IMO, the last thing you want to do is encourage more warfare. By that measure, of course, Vox Populi absolutely fails from the start, despite the fact that I do enjoy some aspects of the mod. Civ 5, in any version, does nothing but encourage warfare, which is just pointless, IMO, because obviously, someone will try to take over someone else at some time - that's just the nature of the game, so don't encourage that, IMO.
 
Can someone do a tldr synopsis of this pls. What are the key differences and in-game results noticable to player from this?
less supply for wide, more supply for tall. the gap is narrowed
bonus supply from coastal buildings greatly reduced
and Authority's supply bonus becomes very frontloaded. I have no idea how much the current scaling bonus translates to lategame, but the proposed +5 flat will be quite big early on
 
Can someone do a tldr synopsis of this pls. What are the key differences and in-game results noticable to player from this?
I hope to do just that in this in game example. Let me walk through it and lets see how it would change things.

Turn 141 Germany Playthrough.
Spoiler :

1713197501670.png


The Formulas
Tech Progress =
X techs researched (including agriculture) / 81
Flat supply = (Total of all flat sources) / (1 + X% * tech progress)
Supply from population = (City 1's supply from population% * City 1's population + City 2's supply from population% * City 2's population + ...) / (1 + Y% * tech progress)
Supply from difficulty = Z - (number of era passed)
Supply from general/admiral = number of generals/admirals expended
Total supply cap = (Sum of the above) * (1 - penalty from war weariness)

Calculating the Current Supply
Flat Supply = 10
Pop Supply = 2
Difficulty Supply = 5
GG Supply = 1
Total = 18, modified to 17 by War Weariness

Final Supply: 17
Spoiler :

This is mainly reference so you can see how the sauce is made today. If you don't care you can move on to the next section.

Current Supply
Tech Progress = 23 techs (including agriculture, check me on that) / 81 techs = 28.40%
Flat Supply = 13 / (1+.83 * .2840) = 10.52 ~= 10
Pop Supply = 7 / (1+7 * .2840) = 2.34 ~= 2
Difficulty Supply = 7 (Immortal) - 2 (Medieval) = 5
GG Supply = 1 (a single citadel).
Total: 18
Modified Total (WW): 18 * (1-.05) = 17.1 ~= 17

Final Supply 17


Proposal Supply Calculation
Flat Supply: 4
Pop Supply: 4
Difficulty Supply: 7
GG Supply: 1

Total = 16, modified to 15 by War Weariness

Final Supply 15
Spoiler :


Flat Supply
Starting: 13 (from original)
City Supply Change (1 to 0): -5, as there are 5 cities no longer granting supply
Lighthouse Change (1 to 0): 0 [no lighthouses so no change]
Stable Change (10% to +1): 0 [no stables]

Flat Supply Base: 8
Flat Supply = 8 * (1-.05 * 5) [this is the new empire size modifier, its 5% for each of our cities] / (1+ 1 * .2840) = 4.67 ~= 4

Population Supply
Population supply is a bit more involved. Each city's population is adjusted by the population modifier. Note that at bare minimum there is now a standard 20% adjustment regardless of difficulty, and then further adjustments for buildings and such.

Berlin: 11 pop * (.2 standard)
Munich: 7 pop * ( .05 walls + .2 standard)
Hamburg: 8 pop * (.05 walls + .2standard)
Frankfurt: 6 pop * ( .2 standard)
Cologne: 6 pop * (.2 standard)

Pop Supply Base: 2.2 + 1.75 + 2 + 1.2 + 1.2 = 8.35
Pop Supply Modified: 8.35 * (1-.05 * 5) empire size mod / (1+1 * .284) = 4.87 ~= 4

Difficulty Supply
Supply = 7 Immortal - 2 medieval + 2 new proposal = 7

Final Supply
Total = 4 (Flat Supply) + 4 (pop Supply) + 7 (Difficulty Supply) + 1 (from GG) = 16
Modified (War Weariness): 16 * (1-.05) = 15.2 ~= 15

15 supply final



Observations
While you can follow the math, the "feeling" of the change is that at medieval my flat supply bonus is basically cut in half, and my pop supply is doubled. I would expect this trend to continue more aggressively in later eras, mainly because of the change in the Population formula for Tech. Before Tech had a CRUSHING effect on population supply, so much that it removes most of the bonus. Now pop should have a much bigger impact on the late game supply numbers. I would expect that even though many of the pop buildings benefit were cut in half (for example the bastion fort's +10% -> 5%), I would actually expect to feel that bonus more because the tech reduction is much more forgiving now.

This supply is lowering than what I get today, and that does concern me a bit. I already feel like Medieval is in a nice place, its tight but not too tight. This is dropping to the point where I might not have good coverage (and on deity it would be worse, especially if no GG had yet been citadeled). We might want to add another +2 flat to the difficulty supply just to balance the books in the early game.
 
Last edited:
less supply for wide, more supply for tall. the gap is narrowed
bonus supply from coastal buildings greatly reduced
and Authority's supply bonus becomes very frontloaded. I have no idea how much the current scaling bonus translates to lategame, but the proposed +5 flat will be quite big early on
Thanks. It's worth a shot, I imagine we will need to adjust over several rounds of congress. I wonder if there's room to have a buildable temp +supply project like public works, in a regime that is much more restrictive -- allow player to build up for war effort, but have this extra supply fall off after time -- keep things somewhat dynamic and feeling like they're in player hands that way.
 
Civ 5, in any version, does nothing but encourage warfare, which is just pointless, IMO, because obviously, someone will try to take over someone else at some time - that's just the nature of the game, so don't encourage that, IMO
Nah, Civ5 without VP is just 4 city Tradition into science victory. Warfare is much better in VP. It's not really about encouragement, it just makes more sense that bigger empire can have bigger army.
 
Nah, Civ5 without VP is just 4 city Tradition into science victory. Warfare is much better in VP. It's not really about encouragement, it just makes more sense that bigger empire can have bigger army.
This proposal still tries to ensure that wider empires will have a larger army.

The main goal, I believe, is that, every empire has enough army for its border size (within reason) to defend with, with additional supply to be used for attack available for those players who specialize into doing so.

Note that under this paradigm, costal cities have water borders and therefore it would be expected that some of the supply granted to the city is sent to naval units to defend said border. If someone wants to make a large enough navy to attack, then it would need to specialize to getting enough supply in order to do so.

Correct me if I'm wrong, @azum4roll
 
Last edited:
I will be able to show it better in examples, but I think you all are overreacting on empire size change. Pop supplies are much more important now, and wide still has more pop than tall. I think wide will still have more supply overall, it just won't be as stark a gap.

Now its true that coastal cities are losign a lot of flat supply, but on the other hand coastal cities tend to grow pretty fast, so they get some compensation.
 
Tl;dr:
1. Supply from population actually matters past the early game
2. Supply is more proportional to border length, instead of empire size
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom