(8-09) 4UC Carthage

[azum4roll]

"When a new Citizen is born, gain Culture equal to 5% of the required Food."

I'm going to counterpropose this anyway. Closer to VP standards.

 

[pineappledan]

Overall grade: B+
Carthage's uniques are both style over substance. The concepts are much more interesting on paper than in-game, but they are interesting. The Suffet is unique to play with, totally unlike anything else in the game, but hampered by how naval pathing prevents disembarking like a normal GGeneral would. The Tophet is a very interesting, albeit a bit edgy. The most recent congress session stole one of its unique mechanics leaving it impoverished and in need of a glow-up.

Suffet
Theme - A. This unit is a fun historical reference and has abilities that directly reference Carthage's historic victories where they outmaneuvered and outflanked the Romans handily. It's good fun.
Mechanics - B. The unit has some very interesting mechanics, able to morph between a GAdmiral and a GGeneral form gives it lots of cool interactions. However, the inability to disembark except on canals and cities is a serious imperfection. It makes amphibious assaults harder with Carthage, because it can be difficult to get your GGenerals onto different landmasses.
Uniqueness - S. Well it certainly is unique. There are 2 other GGenerals, but no other GAdmirals exist in the game. And no other transforming units. It has some very interesting situational utility and the ability to confer ZOC to nearby units puts a new spin on maneuvering units in combat

Tophet
Theme - B. For a unique building, the Tophet is pretty dark. It references an unseemly aspect of Carthaginian culture, their penchant for child sacrifice. Despite this, it's a great icon, and it's a pretty lurid, interesting thing to learn about. I don't hate it, it's just not as celebratory of a unique component as perhaps it ought to be.
Mechanics - D. The current bonuses to unit purchase make no sense for what the building is. They are also kind of boring.
Uniqueness - C. As a unique shrine it is early enough that it feels almost like a part of the UA. But in this ultra-early slot it doesn't do anything that feels transformative for the civ. If you are going to have a building this early it feels like it should matter more for your game plan. Once again I don't hate it, but there is a lot of potential here that is untapped

 

[Hinin]

More developped proposal for the replacement of the Tophet.

UC - Asamu (replaces the Settler)

Unlocked at Agriculture (instead of Pottery)
Becomes obsolete at Banking
Cannot be produced
Must be purchased with Gold (cost increased with number of Cities) and can move immediatly once purchased
Only one can exist at the same time => you must expend the existing one to purchase another
Does not consume Citizens when purchased

2 MP / 2 Vision

Can Embark

Can be expended to found a City.

---

What Building could be given for free without making the Unit OP ? The Market perhaps ?

 

[KlHannibal2]

More developped proposal for the replacement of the Tophet.

UC - Asamu (replaces the Settler)
View attachment 693985

Unlocked at Agriculture (instead of Pottery)
Becomes obsolete at Banking
Cannot be produced
Must be purchased with Gold (cost increased with number of Cities) and can move immediatly once purchased
Can only be purchased in the Capital
Does not consume Citizens when purchased

2 MP / 2 Vision

Can Embark

Can be expended to found a City.

---

What Building could be given for free without making the Unit OP ? The Market perhaps ?

I like the early unlock and embarkation. It will allow Carthage to go straight for its luxury tech, whatever it is. What would be the gold cost for the first one after founding your capital?

 

[Hinin]

I imagine 200 + (n - 1) x 200 Gold to buy, with n the number of cities. So 200 for the first Asamu you buy in the Capital, 200 the second and so on. The exact numbers can be tweaked at will to find a good balance.

We should limit the number of unit available at the same time to avoid exploits (so no new Asamu can be purchased until the existing one has been expended).

 

[TameFroggy]

More developped proposal for the replacement of the Tophet.

UC - Asamu (replaces the Settler)
View attachment 693985

Unlocked at Agriculture (instead of Pottery)
Becomes obsolete at Banking
Cannot be produced
Must be purchased with Gold (cost increased with number of Cities) and can move immediatly once purchased
Can only be purchased in the Capital
Does not consume Citizens when purchased

2 MP / 2 Vision

Can Embark

Can be expended to found a City.

---

What Building could be given for free without making the Unit OP ? The Market perhaps ?

Merchants of Venice already give a free market (and monument) in settled cities
plus, it would be a progression skip (MoVs can technically be obtained before trade, but that would be quite the tech detour)
albeit there are only 2 buildings unlocked immediately; a free shrine could be interesting, but I'm not sure if it quite fits Carthage

there's also the matter of them having 3 UUs if it replaces the Tophet (like the Iroquois, though they have... more problems in their kit)

 

[KlHannibal2]

What about free well/watermill to get those cities going faster? Watermill might be overkill, but well seems OK.

 

[pineappledan]

Can only be purchased in the Capital

?
Shrine would be very appropriate actually.

 

[rkkn]

What's the purpose of the capital restriction?

 

[azum4roll]

Why are we discussing counterproposals here?

 

[Hinin]

Why are we discussing counterproposals here?

Because it was before the proper counterproposal phase was announced. It was mostly brainstorming.

What's the purpose of the capital restriction?

At first, to limit the potential of the UC to be chained from city to city without restriction, but instead (and to avoid cost exploits) the unit will be limited to 1 at the same time (no new Asamu can be purchased until the previous one has been expended, or was killed...).

 

[KlHannibal2]

With the new Carthaginian UA in place (Gains 100 Gold and 25 Science when highest ever quantity of a Luxury Resource increases, scaling with Era. Gains +5 XP to Gold purchased Units, scaling with Era.), the Tophet's main mechanic has been transfered to the UA, and the civ now more than ever gives a feeling of urgency : "I need to get these luxuries asap, before I have to barter or fight for them."

Thus, I want to propose an alternative to the Tophet : instead of a UB, the Carthaginians would have a unique line of settlers that would replace the original ones. These settlers wouldn't be using Production to be created, but would use Gold instead, with increasing costs for each City already settled (like base Settlers get more expensive to produce with each new City). They should also have other benefits that I've not thought about yet, but the "Gold instead of Production" part would really be the core of their identity.

For a civilization as Gold-focused and as frenzied for economic growth as Carthage, that would be both a good expression of the power fantasy I think the civ has represented through the years (early expansion fueling expansion), but also an interesting risk-reward element of their gameplay (you need Gold to invest in buildings or produce troops, and you have almost no economic bonus aside from the instand yields of the UA and a late classical UNW) : if you do things right, the civ could be extremely rewarding and fast-paced, but it would also be brittle and subject to unhappiness waves and collapses (plus the diplomatic penalties you'll get for settling everywhere). Gold would be your fuel and your lifeline for at least the first half of the game, since so many things required for keeping the pace with other civs after settling like crazy would require constant Gold influx. That idea of having a civ dependent on (and not merely aligned with) such a yield appeals to me quite a lot tbh, and thematically it also links Carthage to its origins as the "colony-producing colony" of the Phoenician world.

What do you think ? Also, what would you add to the unit line to spice it up (free buildings, tech requirement changes, free promotions etc) ?

As much as I like the settler UU, I rethought your initial post. The 5 xp the Tophet gives to purchased units has been transferred to the UA. But the main thing was the 20 culture upon purchasing units. That has not been transferred. So there still is an argument to keep the Tophet. Or at least keep it for a while to try the setup.
The current setup encourages you to put your gold into units, resembling historical Carthage hiring mercenaries. Buying settlers feels a bit less historic for Carthage IMO.

 

[Hinin]

As much as I like the settler UU, I rethought your initial post. The 5 xp the Tophet gives to purchased units has been transferred to the UA. But the main thing was the 20 culture upon purchasing units. That has not been transferred. So there still is an argument to keep the Tophet. Or at least keep it for a while to try the setup.
The current setup encourages you to put your gold into units, resembling historical Carthage hiring mercenaries. Buying settlers feels a bit less historic for Carthage IMO.

To me, the Culture from purchase, when taken alone, lacks interactivity. The Asamu has the advantage of changing the way you have to think about Gold in order to ensure a healthy growth in the early game. We can continue the discussion on the thread of my counterproposal.

 

[usadefcon1]

What Building could be given for free without making the Unit OP ? The Market perhaps ?

You could move the UA "Owned Coastal cities receive a free Lighthouse" to Asamu and give them something else on the UA instead.

Something like "Receive a Free Cargo Ship whenever you gain a new Trade Route"

 

[randomnub]

An alternative idea I had for the Tophet:

UB - Tophet (replaces Shrine):

Available at Agriculture​

65 Production cost​

+1 Culture, +2 Faith​

When a new citizen is born, all stored Food in the city is removed and given as Culture instead.​

​

This would mean excess food over the growth cap and food carried over by buildings like granary and aqueduct would be liquidated and given as an instant sum of culture in the city.
This would add extra border growth, which is good because you want borders to expand quickly and gain tiles. It would also mean that Carthage has a very strong culture engine, but at the cost of their cities growing much slower than other civs.
Thematically, this would tie into Carthage's population always being relatively small, and augmented by North African confederates and client people. It would also tie into the Tophet itself by gamifying what this building is: an altar for child sacrifice. The civ would quite literally sacrifice growth for cultural and expansionist benefits.

This would add a new dimension to the civ, adding a tradeoff right from the beginning. It would need to be tested to see if a 1:1 conversion of food to culture is the right amount, if delaying growth that much is too painful in the mid-game, or if it needs to be supplemented by giving a more generous yield conversion, like / for each point of lost

I don't like the perspective of always having to keep and eye on how much food I'm carrying on in order to micro my culture, new Carthage is already quite micro intensive when it comes to plan luxuries trading. I know I'd be starving new cities at 1 pop until they build the tophet, and the AI wouldn't play this optimally.

 

[randomnub]

I'm okay with the change to tophet from flat 20 culture per era to 15% of gold/faith cost instead, slight early nerf and doesn't reward buying the cheapest units available at the time.

 

[pineappledan]

I don't like the perspective of always having to keep and eye on how much food I'm carrying on in order to micro my culture

…how do you think the food carried over mechanic works? There is no micro, this is an instant yield on birth. Food carried over is what the granary does automatically.

 

[rkkn]

…how do you think the food carried over mechanic works? There is no micro, this is an instant yield on birth. Food carried over is what the granary does automatically.

you can do micro to maximize it though. like if your food per turn is 10, with no micro you'll get about 5 carry over even without a granary. It'll somewhat randomly be a value from 0 to 9.
If you want to convert more, when you're about to grow, you can reduce your food that turn to fall 1 short of growing, and then next turn work a lot of food. Maybe you can up that 10 food/turn to 20 by working more food tiles. Then you get 19 extra carry over converted to culture instead of ~5.

 

[pineappledan]

what you are describing is far less sensitive to existing bonuses like university that give a % of your yield per turn as an instant yield. Once you have a granary, Nevermind an aqueduct and beyond, any potential spillover is buffered by the much larger % FoodKept mechanic.

 

[rkkn]

no, you can't really micro science/turn to get more for a turn. Generally all you can vary is how many science specialists you're working (which much of the time is already "all of them"). So that 25% of your science as an instant yield can go up by like... 3 with micro (or 0). That is one or two orders of magnitude less than the difference food micro could make with the proposed building.