(8-44a) Reduce Lategame Supply and Supply From Puppets + Some Tweaks

[Yngwie]

Counterproposal to (8-44) azum4roll's Unit Supply Rework

Problems:
1) So, proposed rework feels great during early game but run out of control in the lategame almost as previous version. It's all mostly caused by too much supply from population:
by the last turn (information era) there were 56 supply from cities and 110 (!) supply from population before Empire size modifier, which reduced the sum to 104 - that's still too much. That's the first problem.

The main sources of supply are still both military-training and defensive buildings. While it's fair to provide supply for the first cathegory, it's weird for the second. The 5% supply from defensive buildings feels counterlogical. Like: "Oh, we can live peacefully now cause we have a better protection of these walls/castle... Let's send more people to the army! ".

2) Captured puppet Cities (especially with supplly wonders) provide too much supply even without annexation. (It were smth like +10 Supply jump per captured Capital in medieval). So, player can keep them as puppets without consequences. It's too good for warmongers, considering they've already gain a City itself.

Proposal:
everything the same except:
1)
Walls, Castle, Bastion Fort, Arsenal, Military Base lose 5% supply from population. (totally 25%)
Barracks, Armory, Military academy gain +5% supply from population (totally 15%), retain all flat bonuses

Bastion Fort lose +1 Flat Supply, gain +10% City's ranged strike damage (this +1 Flat supply was justified by "age of sail", so, moved to Seaport. City's RCS move from Military base)
Seaport gain +1 Flat Supply, retain +10% supply from population
Military base lose +10% City's ranged strike damage (City strike mean nothing at this stage of a game with those hordes of tanks, planes, etc. - moved to Bastion Fort)
Great Wall lose +3 Flat supply, gain -5% Empire size modifier in all Cities (already give huge defensive bonus - no need to increase the army. Calmer population instead)

2)
Puppet Cities provide 20% supply from all sources (Venice get 50%) same as for yields. (Imho Venice is the best warmonger machine in human hands right now, limitations are needed)
Martial Law (Imperialism) gain -20% penalty to Yields and Supply in puppet Cities

Rationale:
Focusing all supply bonuses on military-training building will increase their significance and will turn defensive buildings into pure protective and calming stuff (reduce empire size modifier, unhappiness etc).

These changes will reduce lategame supply without much effect on early and middle game that feels better with rework. It will also provide reasons to build military academies (now they are a bit useless on unlock).

Reducing Supply from puppets will slow down potential snowballing of warmongers.

Those who struggle with early game supply will also benefit from these changes - now 1 type of building required instead of 2 - less time and hummers is needed to maximize supply.

 

[azum4roll]

Great Wall lose +3 Flat supply, gain -5% Empire size modifier in all Cities (already give huge defensive bonus - no need to increase the army. Calmer population instead)

Bonus obsoletes at Gunpowder. It's not going to mean much.

The reason why supply from population is on defensive buildings is that tall players have more population per city and they're the ones who already need defensive buildings in every city. Moving that to military buildings will force those players to have to build both military and defensive buildings.

I agree with the puppet change, especially with Venice.

I disagree with moving the +1 supply from Bastion Fort to Seaport. Coastal cities already get +1 from Harbor not long ago, and Seaport already gives +10% from population. Coastal cities don't need more than that.
If it has to be moved, move it to Coaling Station instead.

It will also provide reasons to build military academies (now they are a bit useless on unlock).

How are they ever useless? Your units start with 3 promotions instead of 2!

 

[OneFuriousDon]

The reason why supply from population is on defensive buildings is that tall players have more population per city and they're the ones who already need defensive buildings in every city. Moving that to military buildings will force those players to have to build both military and defensive buildings.

That's not a valid reason imho. Others ("widers"?) don't want defensive buildings for a higher supply. If that is your reasoning then I'm personally for removing supply bonus on those buildings as it doesn't make much sense overall...
I agree with you that Military Academy is not useless.

 

[Yngwie]

Guess, everyone on immortal-deity are forced to build both military and defensive buildings anyway, otherwise you can be wiped (lack of units). And from the other hand - wide and warmongers ought to build both (wide for reduction, warmongers for aditional units). Why tall civs should be in favor?

About seaports - it's moved just because Seaport is more about sailing than Bastion, Personally, I don't think that 1 flat supply even needed at these stage. So it can be just dropped but let seaport be kind of military building for coastal Cities.

Military academies are useless just because they have:
1) only 1 supply
2) only 1 science
3) it is not important how many promotions are on meat units at this stage - the main forces with March/Range already on the battlefield - that's why military academies either built in 1 City with Heroic Epic or could be completely ignored (in my games, of course)

Plus, for the players who mainly purchase Units, the effect of military academy may be unnoticeable at all

 

[Anarcomu]

Plus, for the players who mainly purchase Units, the effect of military academy may be unnoticeable at all

For the player who mainly purchase Units, the Military academy is needed to be able to purchase units at all
Plus, Freedom Ideology let you purchase at full xp so even less useless

 

[Yngwie]

For the player who mainly purchase Units, the Military academy is needed to be able to purchase units at all
Plus, Freedom Ideology let you purchase at full xp so even less useless

Disagree, since purchase only blocked for later Units and you can still freely purchase any unlocked fusiliers, foreign legions or even Gatling gun from same line tech. Ships (the main cathegory for purchasing at this stage) are unlocked by other buildings.

Mentioned policy of Freedom (Draft Registration) is not worth to spend culture on - picked it only ones just to test and it was never used since there are levy from vassals, units from CS plus already formed army ( and sometimes conscripted Units from authority if it's picked) - no feeling that there are any need to purchase/build Units at all (But that was 4th pick from 1 tier policies - probably too late). Even a combination with increased influence from Units gifts to CS (Arsenal of democracy) is debatable there...

All in all - the problem is that beside XP military buildings have:
Barracks: 1 science and 1 supply - juicy in ancient era
Armories: 2 science and 1 supply - nice medieval option
Both building gain +2 Production from Arena - that's exellent to build in many Cities

and what about Military Academies?
1 science, 1 supply and + 15% production only to land Units - it's crap when you are close to modern era (with crazy 50+ yields from corporations etc)
If i am not mistaken - the only way to boost them is imperialism tree: +2 science, +1 Culture (along with barracks, armories, forts and citadels - so, no benefits for comparison)
Of course, player can build them for future Units - but Military Academies don't have the same role as Barracks and Armories at the moment of unlock - that's the point

 

[azum4roll]

You don't compare buildings on the same line. Castle is obviously worse than Walls, and that's not a problem.

Flat yields no longer matter much at that point; 1 or 5 doesn't make a difference. You build it for the XP, distress reduction, supply, and sometimes the unit production%.

 

[Yngwie]

You don't compare buildings on the same line. Castle is obviously worse than Walls, and that's not a problem.

Flat yields no longer matter much at that point; 1 or 5 doesn't make a difference. You build it for the XP, distress reduction, supply, and sometimes the unit production%.

So, again: in cases when one don't need XP, distress reduction, 1 little supply and the player mainly purchase Units... The only use of Military academies is ... no use until some future Units.
Is it ok? Guess, no.

 

[Yngwie]

About castles - disagree. they are the next step of protection and are vital at the time they are unlocked. Of course walls have more impact but that's the problem of current City CS without fortifications:
it's strange that Cannon can attack Tercio in the field and deal 20 damage, but when it strike the same tercio in a City without fortification there are 60-80 dmg and no Tercio for the next turn... (smth weird happens in that Cities)

 

[Anarcomu]

I guess your main point is that you only need to build it in a single city. In this case, I sorta agree with you that you don't need much more than one in your capital and/or any city dedicated to unit production.
I wouldn't mind having the supply from pop to the military line, then.

 

[FinMc]

The supply is the best part of a military academy. I need every ounce of supply I can find.

The supply is amazing. +1 supply over ~12 cities by that point in the game is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Recursive]

I'll sponsor this.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.